Discussion of spoilers has been archived to Talk:Karen/spoilers. Continue to use this page for any relevant discussion.

New Stuff

When Nico first sees Michelle's apartment he comments that the pillows on her couch still have tags on them. That's the first clue that something is up with her. - Romulusnr 05:44, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that means anything (nothing to do with working for the government anyway). I think that the joke there is that Michelle went out and bought all new stuff to impress Niko. Biggest GTA Fan EverTalk 06:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Who does that? And even if she was that worried about impressing Niko that she bought all new (but not fancy) stuff to impress him, she would have been sure to take the price tags off. Have you ever been on a date? - Romulusnr 17:53, July 29, 2011 (UTC)
Furthermore, anyone that OCD (and desperate) that they need to buy all new stuff in their apartment for their date (or because they "like things clean") would scare off any remotely desirable guy. - Romulusnr 17:55, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


Another clue about Karen is that "Michelle" is inconsistent. Michelle's excuse for everything in her house being brand new is that she "likes things clean". However, she says later in the mission that she only recently moved to Liberty City, which would have been a better reason for all the new stuff. If anyone can understand what I'm trying to say, what do you think about adding the info? Biggest GTA Fan EverTalk 10:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  • I don't see why it shouldn't be added; it's true and was a big tip-off to me the first time I played that she wasn't who she said she was. That Thing There 19:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
    • What makes you say Karen is inconsistent, maybe she is just a bad spy.
      • I agree with the comment directly above mine. I think she just had trouble keeping her story straight. Ghost Leader 00:59, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
    • She doesn't do anything special for a living and she just moved to the big city? It's expensive enough to move; the average person wouldn't buy all new stuff. They'd either bring stuff they already had, or buy used stuff. She ain't rich. - Romulusnr 17:57, July 29, 2011 (UTC)

Re-Merge with Michelle

This is something that I've been meaning to bring up for a while now. GTA IV is two years old, most people who are going to play it already have. What do people think about adding this content into the Michelle (GTA IV) article, using a conventional spoiler warning, perhaps under a Plot header? We would use the Michelle title (rather than the Karen title), so that it's not an instant spoiler (it's your choice to read after the warning). Thoughts? Biggest GTA Fan EverTalk 00:28, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I would say to merge it again. Their the same person just under different names. We should use the second name though. Do the same with Undercover Lover.--Gta-mysteries 00:33, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I agree as well, re-merge. Don't you expect spoilers when you go to Niko Bellic or Patrick McReary's page? Re-merge! Re-merge! Re-merge! Jackass2009 01:45, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

I found Karen!

Ok, in the mission Late Checkout for Ray Boccino, while driving to the Majestic Hotel, I hit a Contender with a woman driving it. She looked exactly like Karen/Michelle (Same hairstyle, same color of jeans, and I could have sworn I saw that same coat). I attempted to kill her, but she got away. I also may have spotted her in the Superstar Cafe (again, she got away, I came there to start a massacre, not to try to look for her). Should we add that she may be spotted again? Kanzler31 00:38, August 24, 2010 (UTC)


Not sure how to incorporate this, but I just asked her for a kiss, and she replied "Anything for my country". Funny with hindsight. Infernux 19:01, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

HOLY SHIT THAT'S KAREN IN THREE'S COMPANY.. Hamodey1 (talk) 03:54, October 22, 2013 (UTC)

Addition to Trivia

Should it be noted in the Triva section that in terms of clothing and hairstyle, Karen looks very similar to Genevieve Aristide from F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin? Bailey Jay (talk) 11:56, July 12, 2014 (UTC)





Karen/Michelle (GTA IV)

OK. I understand why we have separate pages for her and her undercover alter-ego, but why does the Karen page still have all the Michelle girlfriend/dating info? It does not belong to the Karen identity and should be removed as it already exists on the Michelle page (where it belongs).  smurfy (coms) 23:39, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

This was brought up a while ago. Only Tom thought it was a bad idea besides other users. I will merge the pages. Leo68 (talk) 23:45, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

No, I don't think we should merge - I understand the big spoiler alert that causes. I just think the Karen page doesn't need the Michelle Girlfriend info on it - since once she is revealed as Karen, Michelle ceases to exist and the girlfriend info is incorrect. smurfy (coms) 23:51, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

That's what the alert is for. Most people would know anyway. The page is clutter. Both pages have the same info just different names. Leo68 (talk) 23:53, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

In some ways I agree with you, and originally thought it strange that she wasn't on one page (it would be like having a seperate page for Michael Townley). But having read through the old discussions I kind of understand why the decision was made that a "spoiler" alert doesn't really cut it. At the very simplest level, the "master" merged page would have to be under Michelle which then makes her re-apperance in V problematic..etc etc.

I've just tested my edit - removed the Michelle info from Karen page and it looks much better to me. smurfy (coms) 00:06, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion on the page says to merge it with all three discussing deciding they should, but I think it is best to merge because like you said, it would be like having a page for Michael/Amanda/Jimmy/Tracey Townley. Leo68 (talk) 00:43, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Karen/spoilers has the better discussion. As I alluded to above, to avoid an instant spolier, the page would have to be named Michelle, (otherwise a redirect from Michelle to Karen provides a spoiler without giving the opportunity for the reader to avoid the plot revelation) and naming Karen's page "Michelle" makes less sense since she has re-appeared in a subsequent game as Karen. I don't think we should merge without greater community input. My vote would be neutral. smurfy (coms) 00:55, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

Michelle Talk Info

For spoiler discussion, see this talk page
Info This article has previously been the subject of edit wars. Please do NOT place spoilers on the page, or on this talk page.


This article requires expansion. Michelle's proclivities during dating should be listed, as well as how, when, where, and by whom she is introduced to Niko Bellic. Because I have no familiarity with GTA IV, I must leave it to my fellow GTW editors! EganioTalk 07:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Likes / Dislikes

It's been a while since iv'e had to date Michelle so I won't add anything straight to the article without checking first, but i'm sure i remember that she liked eating at resturants, seeing shows (I went to the caberat club) and once I put my waypoiunt on a resturant but when i got there i parked in the wong marker, it was a bar, but she seemed to like it.

I'm in the middle of replaying the game for who knows how many times. I decided to play it differently and do everything up to The Snow Storm so I have Playboy X apartment unlocked. If Niko is wearing Claude's outfit Michelle will hate the jacket and shoes but like the pants. Zadidoll (talk) 20:35, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

Obviousley because its her idea in the First Date mission that she must like bowling (but of course not too often)

Biggest gta fan ever 05:40, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Zadidoll, me too. I don't count it anymore. After 20 times it becomes too much to count...

Anyway, I was the one who undid your edit about that because everytime I played the game I got Claude's Clothes a long time after Michelle's true colors were exposed.

Ok then, feel free to add them.

Mikey Klebbitz (talk) 19:47, April 8, 2013 (UTC)


Now that we know her name isn't Michelle Stone, the second word in the article needs to be deleted. Of course I can't do it myself because of the protection. Biggest gta fan ever 09:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I've know done changed the name. A-Dust 10:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Protection + Spoilers?

Hey, just came across this page and noticed it seems kind of lacking. I understand partially the idea of not placing spoilers on the page (in regards to Karen), however it could at least be improved to include the kind of information in other GTA IV Girlfriends articles like Carmen's. Since the page is protected, it's difficult to get the edits into the page. I'm just wondering what the rationale for the protection is (if it's over worry of adding spoilers or an edit war due to debate on spoilers, I assume that the consensus to not add spoilers could be commented into the edit page at the top so that editors would notice this, while those who wanted to avoid spoilers still would see only a comment along the lines of "Please don't add spoilers regarding Karen to this page" or something).

In addition to the protection concern, I'm wondering what the reasoning for not including spoilers on this page really is. I'm new to this wiki and therefore not 100% sure on it's stylization standards, but I would assume that continuity would be maintained between articles on the same types of subjects. Since Kate's page just includes a spoiler alert and nothing else, I don't see why this couldn't be matched to that. I understand that redirecting Michelle to Karen would cause problems, but since Karen is an extremely minor character (after she becomes Karen), I'd still think it's better to make Michelle into a page similar to Carman's and Kate's and the rest of the girlfriends, tagging the spoiler and having Karen redirect to Michelle. Dylnuge 23:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, there has been extended discussion about how to deal with the spoiler. Yes, the protection is because of the spoiler, so that new users who don't know about the separate page don't add it. You are welcome to discuss this, but please use the other talk page. I don't entirely agree with the protection myself, but I agree that it's the best way to keep the spoilers out. As for non-spoiler expansions, simply type what you want on the page, and I will add it. Thanks! Biggest GTA Fan EverTalk 00:02, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I did read the discussion/debate at the other page, and I'll move the spoiler discussion over there (though I did attempt to keep what I said above spoiler free). I still think that protecting a page goes against the general ideology of a wiki (anyone can edit) and shouldn't really be done for an extended period of time unless absolutely necessary, or if there is no reason for a general user to edit the page. This doesn't really seem to merit either (again, I'll point out that I'm not familiar with policy on GTW and apologize if I'm mistaken). Even if spoilers are to be excluded from the page, a warning of some type (a comment or even a box at the top of the page saying Do not add Spoilers to this Page) could be useful. GTA IV came out more then half a year ago on console, so I'm pretty sure that if protection is still being maintained here then it's probably permanent. Dylnuge 00:33, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
As for things that could be added/changed: Van links to article about the GTA II vehicle, this could be changed to link to Vehicles in GTA IV (I don't see a more appropriate article, perhaps no link is needed). A section could also be added on Michelle's background and personality (she recently moved to Liberty City from the Midwest and doesn't know a lot of places, she prefers variety (expressing interest in new cars and pointing out if Niko is wearing the same outfit or takes her to the same place constantly), and tends to express concern in Niko's involvement in criminal activities while being naive enough to believe his denials).
I will add/change all that stuff. Also, the protection isn't permanent. It's just sticking around for now because some people have only recently played the game for the first time on PC, and in some parts of the world (like where I live in Australia), the PC version isn't even released yet. Biggest GTA Fan EverTalk 00:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


I would like to discuss the possibility of Michelle being from Scotland. If you, when on a date, decide to go play darts with her, the flag on her darts is Scottish. I think that this might be true since Niko has a Serbian flag and so does Roman, and I also know that Packie's darts have Ireland's flag on them. I'm not sure about the rest of the characters though, could somebody confirm this or is the Scottish flag just some sort of default dart pattern/texture? I mean this sounds sort of silly, but I wanted to hear what you guys think.

She could have a friend in Scotland who she got the darts from? She couldn't be Scottish herself, her voice is too American. Maybe she just likes Scotland? Could be a default pattern for her.Project Harbinger 10:53, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

The Scottish flag is the default for girlfriends and strangers. Infernux 15:58, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Adding lists of Michelle's favorite cars/restaurants/etc.

I'm going to add a couple lists under "preferences" to show what cars Michelle prefers, restaurants, venues, etc.

I think this should have been done LONG ago, especially since new users/players to the game can better know what to do during a date. I'll also add the same lists to the other girlfriends later on.

Also, I edited the part that talks about Michelle "not minding" Niko wearing more expensive clothing. That is completely false. She doesn't like anything from Modo or Perseus.

User:Ferrari Carr

Should the K--- and Michelle (GTA IV) articles be merged

Seeing as Michelle is a alias for K--- in the game I think both articles should be merged into one to avoid confusion. --Red Polar Bear Ranger 19:44, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

We've had this discussion many times. The article is separate to hide the secret about Michelle. Please discuss that here. Gboyers talk 00:35, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
I think it should, they are the same people, and when merged, you dont get confused and you see everything at perspective, I think its a great Idea. Massionet51 (talk) 19:00, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

End Spoiler Warnings

Geez, man. The recent removal of spoilers because of this section is ridiculous. The game has been out for nearly a year, and I'm pretty sure most people would have been bloody aware of her by now. Shouldn't there be a limit on how long we hold back on spoilers? - ZS 18:56, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but we need to discuss this and make a decision. We can't just have one person randomly deciding that it's alright, since clearly there has been a lot of discussion on this. Gboyers talk 19:00, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
That's cool. But I'll bring it up again some other time. There's no urgency. - ZS 19:10, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
I know it's been like 2 years since someone's done a post about this, but I think we should keep the spoiler warnings on whatever is needed. No matter how long it's been since the game's release, people can still be only just buying it. I've had the game for over 2 years, so I know it isn't affecting me, but it's gonna be something for other people. TheKingofPies 14:58, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
There aren't actually any spoiler warnings on the page at the moment, but I agree people should be warned if necessary. Infernux 17:23, July 2, 2011 (UTC)


On the page it states that her real name is Karen. This shouldn't be on the page, since spoilers about her are not allowed on this page, only on the Karen page. BethesdaFTW 16:03, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Helicopter glitch?

Hello, I'm new here. I'm not sure if this was a one-time glitch or not, so I'll ask here first. If you're flying a helicopter and going to pick up Michelle, this should happen: The cutscene where Michelle normally walks out of her house and into your car/bike, she will now only stand outside of her door. She will keep standing there until you skip the cutscene. After the date, if you "try your luck" and she says no, then you ask for a kiss, the "kiss" will look really weird, because there's a bigger distance between their seats than normally, so they will just be kissing the air. Does this happen to anyone else?

By the way, the helicopter I used is the one you get when you call 359 555 0100.

Tiny Soap 12:10, May 3, 2012 (UTC)


I think this page should be merged, and then we just leave a redirect behind. VaultBoy Tom (Talk to me this way) 19:04, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I agree but keep it under Michelle because Karen might mislead some people a little, all of her information as Karen can remain on the page (REfreakk55 (talk) 15:09, May 11, 2013 (UTC))
No. If its merged people will see "Karen" and instantly be spoiled. Ccrogers15 (talk) 07:19, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
Here's your solution - keep the Karen spoilers in a different section of the page. Jerkov-GTA2 2009IW4 Let's chat 180px-Zaibatsu corporation1 04:58, August 2, 2013 (UTC)2009IW4
We're not merging the articles. In fact, we're so not merging the articles that we won't even be holding further discussion on whether to merge them or not. Jeff (talk|stalk) 06:16, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

she a bitch

i killed her because of her betrayal i rammed her car wrecking it there is this park its like a circle thing with a tree in the middle and a ledge i wrecked her off of that and i drove my car off the edge and it landed on hers and bounced off i got out of the car and shot her 3 times and she started screaming then i shot her 6 more times she was still alive i was surprised so i started shooting the car and it started to flame up i ran a good distance and watched he blow upHan Lue 04:36, July 24, 2013 (UTC)


I think this page should be marged with the Karen page, but under the name Michelle. The Karen spoilers should have their own section in the page with a spoiler alert. Jerkov-GTA2 2009IW4 Let's chat 180px-Zaibatsu corporation1 04:48, July 29, 2013 (UTC)2009IW4

I agree, the Karen page should be dedicated to the employer named Karen at Goldberg, Linger, and Shyster, and Michelle's page will be named Michelle but include information on her real name. (REfreakk5555 (talk) 04:40, September 10, 2013 (UTC))
The GTA V credit refers to her as Michelle/Karen, so we should use that as the page title. It's redundant to have 2 pages of the same character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RdJokr (talkcontribs) 16:12, September 19, 2013 Please remember to sign your talk page messages with ~~~~.

Merge declined - bureaucrat's veto. Jeff (talk|stalk) 06:06, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

I actually think the Karen page should be merged into this one rather than the other way around. A spoiler flagged section titled "Real Identity" or something similar with a section detailing her appearence in GTA V should suffice. That way people can read two thirds of the article and not be spoiled. The two are one and the same therefore she should only have one article. Plenty of other articles contain spoilers so it seems silly to make an exception for this one especially considering GTA IV has been out for over 5 years now. --MOB-4-Life (talk) 10:54, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to think that, but the articles are staying separate. Jeff (talk|stalk) 18:22, September 26, 2013 (UTC)


Okay, is this serious? I mean, really? This sounds like someone's shitty idea of a creepypasta or ritual. I don't think it belongs here until someone can prove it without a hack. Chris (talk) 00:37, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Once and For All

This is the third time the page merge has been suggested, so I'm setting up a vote.

Should we merge this with Karen?

Closed as successful by Leo68 (talk) 00:36, March 17, 2015 (UTC)



  • I've always been in favour of the merge. Why have two pages for the same character? If it is about spoilers, there's a template for that. It would be like having a page for Michael/Amanda/Jimmy/Tracey Townley. Leo68 (talk) 18:47, March 16, 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with you Leo. It's pointless. We could at least have a Michelle section in the Karen page. Smashbro8-Sig-pt1 (Smashbro8-Sig-pt2) 18:49, March 16, 2015 (UTC)Smashbro8
  • Karen = Character
    Michelle = GTA IV GF.
    'Nuff said. Monolith Patch Rain - Talk SCS Freedom 18:50, March 16, 2015 (UTC)
  • No "Nuff" said, Michael Townley and Michael De Santa are two "different" persons too, it's really pointless to have two articles for the same character, no matter if it's a girlfriend or whatever she is. Signature (talk/stalk/blog) 18:58, March 16, 2015 (UTC)
  • Spoilers should be expected in a wiki. Karen/Michelle is one person, so one page. DocVinewood (talk) 19:11, March 16, 2015 (UTC)
  • Like Andre and Doc said, Michael De Santa is an alias of Michael Townley, just like Michelle is an alias of Karen. Michael Townley and Michael De Santa are the same character and have one page. Likewise, Karen and Michelle are the same character, so should have the one page. SJWalker (talk) 19:21, March 16, 2015 (UTC)
  • One character, one name. On the Batman Wiki, Bruce Wayne and Batman share the same page. While this is different in that it's a spoiler, the main page warns this. It's inevitable for spoilers to occur. I think that we should merge this page with the Karen page and rename it Michelle. Mortsnarg (talk) 19:47, March 16, 2015 (UTC)
  • As mentioned on the Karen talk page...
    • Talk:Karen/spoilers has the better discussion. As I alluded to above, to avoid an instant spolier, the page would have to be named Michelle, (otherwise a redirect from Michelle to Karen provides a spoiler without giving the opportunity for the reader to avoid the plot revelation) and naming Karen's page "Michelle" makes less sense since she has re-appeared in a subsequent game as Karen. I don't think we should merge without greater community input. My vote would be neutral.
​ Any merger will cause confusion or spoilers. For someone looking for the GTAV/Online version of Karen, naming the page Michelle makes 0 sense. For someone looking for the GTA IV Michelle, naming the page Karen provides an instant spoiler. That said, 2 dates in it was obvious that Michelle wasn more than just a girlfriend in the plot of GTA IV (unless you are thick) so it's not really that great a spoiler to name the page Karen. So I'm staying on the fence on this one, sorry. smurfy (coms) Need a Heist crew? 20:11, March 16, 2015 (UTC)

Karen's last name is Daniels

Hey everyone, I have found Karen's last name. It is Daniels. I downloaded the Heist update and opened the Streamedpeds with OpenIV and discovered that her internal name is Karen Daniels (IG_KAREN_DANIELS). There is also new unused clothing items in V including a dress shirt and a bikini top. Link for proof. Click here for image. NikoBellicFTW (talk) 19:49, March 22, 2015 (UTC)

Read the second to last point  smurfy (coms) 20:24, March 22, 2015 (UTC)

But this is from an already released patch? Is it because it's not actually stated in the game itself? NikoBellicFTW (talk) 23:31, March 22, 2015 (UTC)

Can confirm this is true. Should the page be renamed? V-michael-trunk-miniV-franklin-trunk-miniV-trevor-trunk-mini 16:57, March 26, 2015 (UTC)
Bumping this talk page up. Would be nice to get an answer. V-michael-trunk-miniV-franklin-trunk-miniV-trevor-trunk-mini 15:57, March 27, 2015 (UTC)
I'd say we should. It's not leaked info whatsoever. Monolith Patch Rain - Talk SCS Freedom 22:57, March 27, 2015 (UTC)
Done. smurfy (coms) 23:08, March 27, 2015 (UTC)

How do we know that is her?

How do we know the woman from GTA V is actually her? There is no mention of her name.

Thegiantdeagle (talk) 17:00, March 3, 2016 (UTC)

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