Changes: GTA Wiki:Community Noticeboard

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Please be civil when voting, and never condemn another user's vote.
Voting usually lasts 3 to 5 days.

Please input your new discussions at the top by editing the "New Topic" section and adding a new heading, leaving the "New Topic" heading at the top. That way, we can easily spot it rather than looking for it and you don't have to edit the whole page each time.

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Votes

Comments

Rename Grand Theft Auto "1" page

Closed as Successful by Matrexpingvin (talk) 13:03, April 13, 2020 (UTC)

I came here to propose that we rename the "Grand Theft Auto 1" page to either "Grand Theft Auto (game)" or "Grand Theft Auto (1997 game)" for the following reasons:

"Grand Theft Auto 1" is not an official name.
Rockstar never referred to GTA as "GTA 1", not even on the official GTA series website. They usually call it "the first GTA", "the classic GTA" or the "original GTA".
It is way better to just write "the first Grand Theft Auto game" or "classic Grand Theft Auto" instead of "Grand Theft Auto 1".
While using it in an article context is sort of fine (because it's the first in sequence), it still looks out of place. On the other hand, the "1" should absolutely not be in the article's title because it's not in the game's title. (By the way, since smurfy used Grand Theft Auto Advance as an example of why we already use unofficial titles for easy differentiation - "Advance" is actually an official title, since it was used in the start menu, website and official trailers of the game).

I personally think it's better to use "(1997 game)" in the title, as we can use this pattern when the next GTA Online is released ("Grand Theft Auto Online (202X game)").
kamikatsu_ ^Talk 09:23, April 5, 2020 (UTC)

Votes

Yes - Slash^M,C 12:25, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
Yes - Matrexpingvin (talk) 12:43, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
Yes - DocVinewood (talk) 12:58, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
Yes - S-424 (talk) 13:09, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
Yes - User:Raziel Reaper (Talk To Me • Edits ) 13:21, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
Yes* - Smurfy: illuminate - communicate - spectate 02:12, April 6, 2020 (UTC)
Yes - BolbiiS (talk) 2:21, April 6, 2020 (UTC)

Comments

Voting yes as this is significantly different to your original Discord proposal to rename it to "Grand Theft Auto" and to rename the existing Grand Theft Auto page to "Grand Theft Auto Series" or similar. When you see "Grand Theft Auto" in the public domain, it is generally referring to the series, not the first game. This wiki is called "gtawiki" not "gtaserieswiki" because "GTA" automatically refers to the series, not just the first game. While I don't really think this is necessary (since, when the wiki was first written, it was named thus and has worked fine, without any ambiguity, for the past 15+ years). For what it's worth, "Grand Theft Auto 1" is still a valid descriptor, for exactly the reason as originally laid out by the founding wiki authors. No game publisher names their first game with a "1" on the end, since that is the epitome of arrogance and marketing suicide, but that doesn't change the fact that any game that is the first in what turns out to be a significant series that shares the same title, does become generally known as "Title 1". While it is true R* don't use it, respectable sites other than gtawiki and grandtheftwiki do. e.g. Google search returns 202,000 (non-wiki) results for "Grand Theft Auto 1", including:
- IGN (note the page title!)
- Endgadget
- Versionmuseum
- Gamespot
- Eurogamer

And that was just the "respectable" sites on the first couple of pages. So, given the ubiquity and validity of the Grand Theft Auto 1 name, a redirect from there to whatever new page name is decided should remain in place. Smurfy: illuminate - communicate - spectate 02:12, April 6, 2020 (UTC)

"Tips and Tricks" Wholesale Removal

Closed as Successful by Smurfy: illuminate - communicate - spectate 01:05, February 9, 2020 (UTC)

It has come to my attention that many articles, particularly missions in 3D Universe titles (and to a lesser extent GTA IV and GTA V), seem to have an abundance of "tips and tricks" listed under their own section heading.

Nothing in the current Manual of Style for Missions allows for this, nor has there ever been provision to allow for this.

This is a wiki, documenting what is in the games. We are not here to provide advice to the reader on how to play. Some leeway has been allowed under the "100% Objectives" or "Gold Medal Objectives" sections to provide some advice towards achieving those particular targets, but they are generally not wholesale "how to play the whole mission" tips.

I suggest we clearly state in the MoS under "What to avoid" that these dedicated "tips" sections are prohibited by policy and all editors should be encouraged to remove them whenever they are found. Smurfy: illuminate - communicate - spectate 03:10, January 26, 2020 (UTC)

Votes

Yes - Slash^M,C 10:07, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
Yes Matrexpingvin (talk) 11:29, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
Yes - SWAT Cam F 12:52, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
Yes - Sam ^Talk 15:45, January 26, 2020 (UTC)

Comments

Self-explanatory. There are possibly many, many ways one can achieve during missions, but listing all of them is kinda pointless and confusing. Of course, "Gold Medal Objectives" are an exception, as long as they don't fall into a "how to play" description. -- SWAT Cam F 12:52, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
I'm probably the one who's guilty of adding most of the tips and tricks sections to the game when I switched mission pages from first-person walkthroughs to third-person descriptions as a sort of "trade off". I'm happy for them to be removed as this should be a documentation of the game rather than a how to play. Gold medal objectives should be an exception though. Sam ^Talk 15:45, January 26, 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 18: / Line 18: @@
 # [[GTA Wiki:Community Noticeboard/Archive 11|Late August 2016 - July 2017]]
 # [[GTA Wiki:Community Noticeboard/Archive 12|September 2017 - November 2018]]
+# [[GTA Wiki:Community Noticeboard/Archive 13|All of 2019]]
 |-
 |
@@ Line 41: / Line 42: @@
 '''Please input your new discussions at the top by editing the "New Topic" section and adding a new heading, leaving the "New Topic" heading at the top.''' That way, we can easily spot it rather than looking for it and you don't have to edit the whole page each time.
+==New Topic==
+Blank for next new topic.
+===Votes===
+*
+===Comments===
+*
+<!--Insert your new topic here-->
+==Rename Grand Theft Auto "1" page==
-==Demotion: [[User:TAlim 1994|TAlim 1994]]==
+'''''Closed as <font color=limegreen>Successful</font> by''''' [[User:Matrexpingvin|'''''Matrexpingvin''''']] ([[User talk:Matrexpingvin|'''''talk''''']]) 13:03, April 13, 2020 (UTC)
-Demotions are never a good thing, but having to demote a Bureaucrat is particularly distressing, especially one who has committed immensely in the past. Unfortunately it is of deep regret to bring to attention how inactive TAlim 1994 has been for the past. Last contributed this time 4 months ago (May), but that was only half a year's worth of activity; Konan went inactive for over a year as Admin back in 2018, and returned very late 2018, regaining activity shortly before applying and gaining a Bureaucrat position. His inactivity during this year has been understandable given the circumstances, but that still does not mean the position isn't currently being encumbered. Currently, Administrator positions are full which means that active Bureaucrats aren't essential, but if an Admin were to move up, that would require that Bureaucrats are either active or not present at all.
+I came here to propose that we rename the "''[[Grand Theft Auto 1]]''" page to either "''Grand Theft Auto'' (game)" or "''Grand Theft Auto'' (1997 game)" for the following reasons:
-It can be noted that during his excessive one-year "hiatus", TAlim claims to have frequently edited on Wikipedia, and was one of the reasons he claims he (had) returned to the wiki with no difficulty after such a long break. Personally, and I'm sure many users will agree, editing on Wikipedia does not give a user "e-points" towards a Bureaucrat position, particularly after his intermission, and is part of the reason I regret voting towards his Bureaucrat promotion in the first place.
+*"Grand Theft Auto 1" is not an official name.
-While not directly affecting the reason for this Demotion post, some of TAlim's endeavors during his bureaucracy have been less favorable in mine and others' opinions, including disturbing active Blocks and even going as far to unblock permanently banned users without discussion. I personally hold him responsible for dredging up [[User:Kintobor|Kintobor's]] block and causing months upon months, on-end, of arguments, harassment from and the eventual global block of the aforementioned user. This, and several other situations, have brought great difficulty to the community and other Staff members, including myself, have had to deal with them. As a bureaucrat is responsible for dealing with situations appropriately, I do not believe some of his actions have been suited to the role.
+*Rockstar never referred to GTA as "GTA 1", not even on the [http://rockstargames.com/grandtheftauto official GTA series website]. They usually call it "the first GTA", "the classic GTA" or the "original GTA".
+*It is way better to just write "the first ''Grand Theft Auto'' game" or "classic ''Grand Theft Auto''" instead of "''Grand Theft Auto 1''".
+*While using it in an article context is sort of fine (because it's the first in sequence), it still looks out of place. On the other hand, the "1" should absolutely not be in the article's title because it's not in the game's title. (By the way, since [[User:Kiwismurf|smurfy]] used ''[[Grand Theft Auto Advance]]'' as an example of why we already use unofficial titles for easy differentiation - "Advance" is actually an official title, since it was used in the start menu, website and official trailers of the game).
+I personally think it's better to use "(1997 game)" in the title, as we can use this pattern when the next ''GTA Online'' is released ("''Grand Theft Auto Online'' (202X game)").<br />
-His activity remains idle and communication with him to alert him of his inactivity is minimal, I have had no response from several messages on the community Discord and here on the GTA Wiki itself. As I have alerted him that his inactivity has, on numerous occasions, brought reasonable difficulty to the staff team, and have had no response, I am proposing demotion of TAlim 1994. <font size="4" face="Tahoma"><b>[[User:Monkeypolice188|Monk]]</b></font> <font face="Tahoma"><sup>[[User talk:Monkeypolice188|Talk]]</sup></font> 20:53, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
+<font size="4" face="Arial"><b><span style="color:#800080;">''[[User:Kamikatsu|kamikatsu_]]''</span></b></font> [[User talk:Kamikatsu|<font face="Arial"><sup>Talk</sup></font>]] 09:23, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
 ===Votes===
+*'''Yes''' - <font size="4" color="#ff99cc" face="Arial"><b>Slash</b></font><sup>[[User talk:Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#7effa3">M</font>]],[[Special:Contributions/Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#0066ff">C</font>]]</sup> 12:25, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
-===Comments===
+*'''Yes''' - [[User:Matrexpingvin|'''''Matrexpingvin''''']] ([[User talk:Matrexpingvin|'''''talk''''']]) 12:43, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
+*'''Yes''' - [[User:DocVinewood|DocVinewood]] ([[User talk:DocVinewood|talk]]) 12:58, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
-==Resignation==
+*'''Yes''' - '''''[[User:TheS424|S-424]]''''' ([[User talk:TheS424|talk]]) 13:09, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
-Well, I think the time has finally come for me to step down. Sadly my interest in the wiki and GTA has been declining lately, and I don't have the motivation to stay as administrator anymore. I'm also convinced there are other active editors that would do a better job and are ready for a promotion.
+*'''Yes''' - '''[[User:Raziel Reaper]] (<small>[[User talk:Raziel Reaper|Talk To Me]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/Ilan xd|Edits]] </small>)''' 13:21, April 5, 2020 (UTC)
+*'''Yes*''' - <font size="4" color="#1589FF" face="Arial">Smurfy:</font> <font size="1" face="Arial">[[User:Kiwismurf|illuminate]] - [[User talk:Kiwismurf|communicate]] - [[Special:Contributions/Kiwismurf|spectate]]</font> 02:12, April 6, 2020 (UTC)
-Good luck to everybody, and thanks to [[User:Monkeypolice188|Monk]], [[User:Kiwismurf|Sean]], [[User:SJWalker|Sam]] and [[User:Camilo Flores|Cam]] for being great members of this community and awesome GTA fans. I've learned a lot from you. [[User:DocVinewood|DocVinewood]] ([[User talk:DocVinewood|talk]]) 14:50, June 14, 2019 (UTC)
+*'''Yes''' - '''[[User:BolbiiS|BolbiiS]]''' ([[User talk:BolbiiS|talk]]) 2:21, April 6, 2020 (UTC)
 ===Comments===
+*Voting '''yes''' as this is significantly different to your original Discord proposal to rename it to "Grand Theft Auto" and to rename the existing [[Grand Theft Auto]] page to "Grand Theft Auto Series" or similar. When you see "Grand Theft Auto" in the public domain, it is generally referring to the series, not the first game. This wiki is called "gtawiki" not "gtaserieswiki" because "GTA" automatically refers to the series, not just the first game. While I don't really think this is necessary (since, when the wiki was first written, it was named thus and has worked fine, without any ambiguity, for the past 15+ years). For what it's worth, "Grand Theft Auto 1" is still a valid descriptor, for exactly the reason as originally laid out by the founding wiki authors. No game publisher names their first game with a "1" on the end, since that is the epitome of arrogance and marketing suicide, but that doesn't change the fact that any game that is the first in what turns out to be a significant series that shares the same title, does ''become generally known as "Title 1"''. While it is true R* don't use it, respectable sites other than gtawiki and grandtheftwiki '''do'''. e.g. Google search returns 202,000 (non-wiki) results for "Grand Theft Auto 1", including:
-*Sorry to see you go again, unfortunately it does happen; losing motivation and time especially. I'm sure we'll see you around occasionally in the meantime :) <font size="4" face="Tahoma"><b>[[User:Monkeypolice188|Monk]]</b></font> <font face="Tahoma"><sup>[[User talk:Monkeypolice188|Talk]]</sup></font> 15:30, June 16, 2019 (UTC)
+**[https://www.ign.com/games/grand-theft-auto-1 IGN] (note the page title!)
+**[https://www.engadget.com/2013-05-01-grand-theft-auto-1-and-2-rated-for-playstation-platforms.html Endgadget]
+**[https://www.versionmuseum.com/history-of/grand-theft-auto Versionmuseum]
+**[https://www.gamespot.com/gallery/evolution-of-grand-theft-auto-milestones-from-ever/2900-1552/5/ Gamespot]
+**[https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-05-01-grand-theft-auto-1-and-2-spotted-for-ps3-vita-release Eurogamer]
+:And that was just the "respectable" sites on the first couple of pages. So, given the ubiquity and validity of the ''[[Grand Theft Auto 1]]'' name, a redirect from there to whatever new page name is decided should remain in place. <font size="4" color="#1589FF" face="Arial">Smurfy:</font> <font size="1" face="Arial">[[User:Kiwismurf|illuminate]] - [[User talk:Kiwismurf|communicate]] - [[Special:Contributions/Kiwismurf|spectate]]</font> 02:12, April 6, 2020 (UTC)
+=="Tips and Tricks" Wholesale Removal==
-You can count on it. Take care :) [[User:DocVinewood|DocVinewood]] ([[User talk:DocVinewood|talk]]) 14:46, June 17, 2019 (UTC)
+'''''Closed as <font color=limegreen>Successful</font> by''''' <font size="4" color="#1589FF" face="Arial">Smurfy:</font> <font size="1" face="Arial">[[User:Kiwismurf|illuminate]] - [[User talk:Kiwismurf|communicate]] - [[Special:Contributions/Kiwismurf|spectate]]</font> 01:05, February 9, 2020 (UTC)
+It has come to my attention that many articles, particularly missions in 3D Universe titles (and to a lesser extent ''GTA IV'' and ''GTA V''), seem to have an abundance of "tips and tricks" listed under their own section heading.
-==Color tables readability==
-I've noticed on the page [[Squalo]], that the vehicle color table renders all text inside as white regardless of the background color of the cells. To fix the issue, I've created several templates (per game):
+Nothing in the current [[GTA_Wiki:Manual_of_Style/Missions|Manual of Style for Missions]] allows for this, nor has there ever been provision to allow for this.
-* {{t|CarColIII/SwitchContrastColor}}
-* {{t|CarColVC/SwitchContrastColor}}
-* {{t|CarColSA/SwitchContrastColor}}
-* {{t|CarColIV/SwitchContrastColor}}
+This is a wiki, documenting what is in the games. We are not here to '''provide advice''' to the reader on '''how to play'''. Some leeway has been allowed under the "100% Objectives" or "Gold Medal Objectives" sections to provide some advice towards achieving those particular targets, but they are generally not wholesale "how to play the whole mission" tips.
-These templates only use white and black color, depending on the first positional parameter. White or black is chosen to have maximum contrast compared to the corresponding color in /SwitchColor templates. The code was generated by a small Python script using contrast formulas from https://stackoverflow.com/a/7261158/1083697.
-I've checked the results on pages [[Squalo]], [[Cheetah]], [[Cuban Jetmax]], [[Feltzer]]. Feel free to ping me if you see any issues with these templates.
-Question: I see that [[Template:CarColV]] uses a mix of CSS and HTML to solve the readability issue. For some colors in [[Template:CarColV/SwitchName]], an HTML snippet <code><nowiki><font color=black></nowiki></code> is added, and for some colors in [[Template:CarColV/SwitchColor]]—CSS snippet <code>; color:black</code>. It seems that CSS solution is a bit broken, because [[Template:CarColV]] has <code>color:#FFFFFF</code> in the style right after transclusion of {{t|CarColV/SwitchColor}}.
-Should I try to unify GTA V templates with the other templates? Or maybe the correct solution would be to have both foreground and background colors in /SwitchColor templates? I went with the separate template solution, because it was the easier option—in the main templates I just replaced <code>FFFFFF</code> with transclusions of new templates. —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 13:11, June 13, 2019 (UTC)
-: About the second option: if we're to have both colors inside /SwitchColor templates, then it would probably make sense to move some CSS bits over there as well. Something like:
- <nowiki>background: #{{#switch: {{{1}}} ...lots of code... }}; color: #<another giant switch>;</nowiki>
-:—⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 13:29, June 13, 2019 (UTC)
+I suggest we clearly state in the MoS under "What to avoid" that these dedicated "tips" sections are prohibited by policy and '''all editors should be encouraged to remove them''' whenever they are found. <font size="4" color="#1589FF" face="Arial">Smurfy:</font> <font size="1" face="Arial">[[User:Kiwismurf|illuminate]] - [[User talk:Kiwismurf|communicate]] - [[Special:Contributions/Kiwismurf|spectate]]</font> 03:10, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
+===Votes===
+*'''Yes''' - <font size="4" color="#ff99cc" face="Arial"><b>Slash</b></font><sup>[[User talk:Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#7effa3">M</font>]],[[Special:Contributions/Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#0066ff">C</font>]]</sup> 10:07, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
+*'''Yes''' [[User:Matrexpingvin|'''''Matrexpingvin''''']] ([[User talk:Matrexpingvin|'''''talk''''']]) 11:29, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
+*'''Yes''' -<span style="background-color:white; border:4px ridge black; color:#FFFFFF; font-family:System;">[[File:Body Armor Android.png|20px]] [[User:Camilo Flores|'''SWAT Cam F''']] [[File:Torpedo Android.png|20px]]</span> <span>[[File:Detonator Android.png|20px|link=User talk:Camilo Flores|Dispatch]]</span> <span style="background-color:#000000;">[[File:Crate Android.png|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Camilo Flores|Data Files]]</span> 12:52, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
+*'''Yes''' - <font size="5" face="Old English Text MT"><b>[[User:SJWalker|Sam]]</b></font> [[User talk:SJWalker|<font face="Old English Text MT"><sup>Talk</sup></font>]] 15:45, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
 ===Comments===
+*Self-explanatory. There are possibly many, many ways one can achieve during missions, but listing all of them is kinda pointless and confusing. Of course, "Gold Medal Objectives" are an exception, as long as they don't fall into a "how to play" description. --<span style="background-color:white; border:4px ridge black; color:#FFFFFF; font-family:System;">[[File:Body Armor Android.png|20px]] [[User:Camilo Flores|'''SWAT Cam F''']] [[File:Torpedo Android.png|20px]]</span> <span>[[File:Detonator Android.png|20px|link=User talk:Camilo Flores|Dispatch]]</span> <span style="background-color:#000000;">[[File:Crate Android.png|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Camilo Flores|Data Files]]</span> 12:52, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
-*As the original developer of this template series, I appreciate the time put into fixing that. I did attempt to avert that in the V template, but forgot about the others. All looks good to me :) <font size="4" face="Tahoma"><b>[[User:Monkeypolice188|Monk]]</b></font> <font face="Tahoma"><sup>[[User talk:Monkeypolice188|Talk]]</sup></font> 15:32, June 16, 2019 (UTC)
+*I'm probably the one who's guilty of adding most of the tips and tricks sections to the game when I switched mission pages from first-person walkthroughs to third-person descriptions as a sort of "trade off". I'm happy for them to be removed as this should be a documentation of the game rather than a how to play. Gold medal objectives should be an exception though. <font size="5" face="Old English Text MT"><b>[[User:SJWalker|Sam]]</b></font> [[User talk:SJWalker|<font face="Old English Text MT"><sup>Talk</sup></font>]] 15:45, January 26, 2020 (UTC)
-== Infobox readability and CSS ==
-Is yellow and black colors of [[Template:Infobox mission]] intended? For me it looks really bad, for example, on [[Zeroing In]]. I've also [[Template talk: Infobox mission#GTA III bg color issue|posted]] about readability issues of yellow-on-yellow text, like in [[Introduction (GTA III)]]. —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 13:53, June 2, 2019 (UTC)
-====Comments====
-*Yes, it is intended. Everything is fine on my end. <font size="4" color="#ff99cc" face="Arial"><b>Slash</b></font><sup>[[User talk:Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#7effa3">M</font>]],[[Special:Contributions/Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#0066ff">C</font>]]</sup> 16:29, June 2, 2019 (UTC)
-** Screenshot with poorly readable text highlighted: https://i.imgur.com/xt5svF1.png. In addition to issue with readability: the different yellow & black background of table cells seems unnecessary. —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 11:21, June 3, 2019 (UTC)
-*** Everything looks fine to me. Try adjusting your monitor. Black background is necessary, we'd like our templates to not look terrible. <font size="4" color="#ff99cc" face="Arial"><b>Slash</b></font><sup>[[User talk:Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#7effa3">M</font>]],[[Special:Contributions/Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#0066ff">C</font>]]</sup> 11:37, June 3, 2019 (UTC)
-**** How about making whole infobox background black, so that it's not a checkered black-yellow board? Something like this: https://i.imgur.com/KMJikkF.png. —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 15:05, June 3, 2019 (UTC)
-**** Also, entered the colors into an online contrast checker, and it failed 5/5 tests: https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/?fcolor=FEC356&bcolor=CFA774 —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 15:09, June 3, 2019 (UTC)
-***** I was mainly talking about San Andreas when I said that "everything was fine". You're definitely right about III's link colors. They should be changed up a bit, sort of like the colors for Vice City infoboxes were changed up. Multiple colors in the infoboxes (derived from themes of their separate games) should be kept. <font size="4" color="#ff99cc" face="Arial"><b>Slash</b></font><sup>[[User talk:Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#7effa3">M</font>]],[[Special:Contributions/Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#0066ff">C</font>]]</sup> 15:28, June 3, 2019 (UTC)
-****** SA color scheme also scores 0/5 :-( https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/?fcolor=B54242&bcolor=E2A152 —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 15:31, June 3, 2019 (UTC)
-******* Most of them score lower than 2. Everything is fine as long as you can make out the fact that there's text there (tho links on GTA III's infobox is somewhat hard to see). <font size="4" color="#ff99cc" face="Arial"><b>Slash</b></font><sup>[[User talk:Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#7effa3">M</font>]],[[Special:Contributions/Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#0066ff">C</font>]]</sup> 16:00, June 3, 2019 (UTC)
-==Position of hatnotes==
-Good day to all. I have noticed an inconsistency with the positioning of the hatnotes ([[Template:Spoiler]], [[Template:Disambiglink]], etc.) on different articles. For example, [[Keep Your Friends Close...]] has the "Spoiler" hatnote above the Infobox, while [[Tommy Vercetti]] has it beside it. I have been trying to normalize the location of the "[[Template:Disambiglink|Disambiglink]]" template by placing it beside the Infobox for some time, but after seeing the same issue with the "Spoiler" template I have decided to raise the matter here. Should we have the hatnotes beside the Infobox, or should they be above it? Please vote and/or comment on this. Thank you in advance for your input.
-[[User:TAlim 1994|<span title="Click this link to visit my User page.">TAlim 1994<font face="Segoe Script" color="Ghostwhite"> - <i>Konan T-A Lim 林道安</i></font></span>]] ([[User talk:TAlim 1994|<span title="Click this link to visit my Talk page.">talk</span>]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/TAlim 1994|<span title="Click this link to see the contributions that I have made.">contributions</span>]]) 05:47, March 29, 2019 (UTC)
-====Votes====
-*'''Above''' - <font size="4" face="Arial" color="#7effa3"><b>Slash</b></font><sup>[[User talk:Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#ff99cc">M</font>]],[[Special:Contributions/Shred_N_Slash|<font face="Broadway" color="#0066ff">C</font>]]</sup> 09:26, March 30, 2019 (UTC)
-*'''Both''' - <font size="4" face="Tahoma"><b>[[User:Monkeypolice188|Monk]]</b></font> <font face="Tahoma"><sup>[[User talk:Monkeypolice188|Talk]]</sup></font> 12:35, March 30, 2019 (UTC)
-*'''Depends''' - <font size="4" face="Arial" color="#1589FF">Smurfy:</font> <font size="1" face="Arial">[[User:Kiwismurf|illuminate]] - [[User talk:Kiwismurf|communicate]] - [[Special:Contributions/Kiwismurf|spectate]]</font> 22:45, March 30, 2019 (UTC)
-*'''Above''' —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 01:38, June 19, 2019 (UTC)
-====Comments====
-*It totally depends on the size of the hatnote, in my opinion. For example, fix-width hatnotes (like "Images", "Spoiler", etc) should always be ''above'' the infobox, at the very top of an article (unless section-specific), simply because the full-width nature spreads out the text and content within the hatnote much better than it does when condensed between a 300px infobox. However, non-fixed width examples, such as Disambiglink, can vary in width. Really small disambiglinks look awkward when they're above the infobox, as you end up with unnecessary spacing at either side of the hatnote when it is placed above the infobox, hence why I've been moving such small disambiglink hatnotes beneath the infobox, that way, it tidily fits between the infobox and the left margin. <font size="4" face="Tahoma"><b>[[User:Monkeypolice188|Monk]]</b></font> <font face="Tahoma"><sup>[[User talk:Monkeypolice188|Talk]]</sup></font> 12:35, March 30, 2019 (UTC)
-*I think it depends on the template, and the individual page - but for slightly different reasons to Monk. As per wiki standards, a disambiguation hatnote should always be the topmost element on a page '''when it is rendered to the user'''. That doesn't mean it is necessarily the topmost element in the source code. Aligning a short one to the left of a right-aligned infobox still makes it the first element on the page (in English, where we read left-right). Where it requires 100% width, it should obviously be on top.<br />Where there are other banner elements (e.g. Maintenance banners like Cleanup, Images needed, Under construction, or Notice elements like Next-gen, Spoilers) that do require 100% of the page width, then any disambig (regardless of width) needs to sit above these, so needs to be the first element in the code. ''We are currently quite bad at that''. We're probably also a bit more relaxed on the over-use of disambigs for things that are related rather than alternates, so should really just be in "see also" sections. <font size="4" face="Arial" color="#1589FF">Smurfy:</font> <font size="1" face="Arial">[[User:Kiwismurf|illuminate]] - [[User talk:Kiwismurf|communicate]] - [[Special:Contributions/Kiwismurf|spectate]]</font> 22:45, March 30, 2019 (UTC)
-* Voted above because 1) it is a style used on many other wikis, including Wikipedia and Memory Alpha 2) this allows for better readability if the infobox to the right of notice makes it too narrow (default skin on FANDOM make pages already too narrow). I believe we should dismiss options "both" and "depends" simply as inconsistent. If there is an agreed upon placement policy/guideline/whatever, then: a) editors don't need to spend time deciding which placement is better, and b) it will always be objective. —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 01:38, June 19, 2019 (UTC)

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