GTA Wiki talk:Community Portal/Oasis Archive

Discussion

 * Please use this section to discuss the Oasis skin and the move away from Wikia

This was a discussion I had with Angela Beesley (Wikia Founder) in 2007 before Grand Theft Wiki moved to Wikia: This is just another proof of the breach of trust we have seen from Wikia. They are not keeping the ads away from the content at all, and they are very obtrusive - especially on the new thinner layout. Logged in users see more than one advert, and it does detract significantly from the experience of using the wiki. Gboyers talk 22:29, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * ME: As for Wikia adverts, I understand that this is central to your business and so I wouldn't prevent that. As on WoWWiki, the advertisements aren't brazenly plastered around every pixel of space. Although I never run adverts on my own sites (something about ethics...), so long as they don't detract from the experience of using the Wiki, then I have no qualms with their use.
 * ANGELA: Hopefully you won't find them obtrusive. The new skins were designed to keep the ads away from the content, especially for logged in users where there is just one small ad in the top corner.

Community Answers

 * Please place your answers below, in a similar format to this first post. 

Gboyers talk 22:15, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) What do you think of the Oasis skin? - I think the skin is okay, but it does NOT suit a wiki, especially GTW. It will also cause a lot of problems, and ruin our identity.
 * 2) Do you think GTW should leave Wikia? - Yes, but only if the community are with us. Splitting the community in two, or only taking away the staff, would be disastrous for both forks.
 * 3) If we moved, would you move with us, rather than staying on gta.wikia.com? Yes - it is absolutely imperative that we all move together.

MAINEiac4434 22:44, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) It's meh, not really my thing. I could see how it would work for other wikis, though.
 * 2) I'm actually 50-50 split on this. There are some good reasons to go, but also some good reasons to stay. If I had to choose, I'd say leave Wikia.
 * 3) I would move with you, wholeheartedly.

A-Dust 23:06, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) I think that the skin looks horrible, worse than the current Wikia preferred option (which I also do not use). The skin will take away the identity of GTW and create a layout that could be any other wiki.
 * 2) Yes and I suggested the possibility when they introduced the now outgoing skin a while back.
 * 3) Yes.

I didn't like some of the things i read about the new changes. When these changes take place i will be leaving. I will follow GTW if it moves and i hope that it does. Jaceysdad 23:20, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Horrible
 * 2) Some good reasons to stay, but maybe it's time for independence
 * 3) Yes.

Kanzler31 23:32, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Make your own domain grandtheftwiki.com like you said. I'd definitely move with you guys. Kyleneu 04:29, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Chimpso (Talk) 04:37, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Terrible, put's advertising first and contend/creative design last.
 * 2) I support the move. But I still think we should fight to keep the skin off us.
 * 3) Definetly

I have been going around many Wikia wikis leaving my input on a move:
 * 1) I hate the new Wikia skin (it is no longer called Oasis, just Wikia, oh, how imaginative!) It is hard to use, slow to load and fixed width is just evil!
 * 2) There are many good wiki farms. I plan to move Wikisimpsons to ShoutWiki and an old Wikia helper, Jack Phoenix, is a staff member there. Moving will be for the best.
 * 3) I am not a major contributor here. Made one or two edits. If you move to ShoutWiki, I will use that one over this one though.

I have got a list of positives and negatives about ShoutWiki here. Please read that as it may help make a decision. ☆ The   Solar   Dragon  ☆ 06:25, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

The Hole 13:02, October 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Bad.
 * 2) I prefer to leave.
 * 3) Definetly.


 * 1) I hate it with a passion (I was in the first batch of beta testers), and I have made an array of essays and blog posts against it. Essentially though, I don't see how this wiki will be able to go on without a sidebar with more than 4 menus, without a sitenotice, without half its content space and without a banner.
 * 2) ShoutWiki is looking into snatching Monaco and implementing it on their wikifarm before it gets nuked, and this means widgets will be back there. I'd suggest setting up a donation fund to pay for a server and a domain if you're self-hosting, but admins and users will get more access to the database - and you can mould the wiki however you want it (user right names can be incredibly original).
 * 3) I will be quitting Wikia altogether. It's sad, but I can't do anything about it. Even though I have hardly edited here, I read this wiki a lot. I'll definitely become a full time editor when GTA V is announced and that will hopefully be when you guys have a new wiki. Just remember that you will have to make sure this old wiki does not change for the worse while everyone is gone.

19:09, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

1. The new skin sucks

2. Yes you should move

3. Yes I might have just joined but I'll always be loyal to the true GTAwiki

--Thescarydude 20:25, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) I hate the skin it is really bland (and I thought the original wasn't too special).
 * 2) If the new site will be more popular than this one, yes. Otherwise, I'll still be on the fence.
 * 3) Of course, but it'll be hard letting go of this place, especially with so many fools on the net.

Leaving
because, do not leave this site at wikia.

So, this place will be completely dead?
Am I understanding this correctly? This place will beasically become a tomb with no updates due to this new skin?

Okay, that's fair enough and I will not begrudge you the right to such a course of action. Especially if the monkeys on this site, in their ivory towers, insist of forcing a new skin upon us.

But please clarify something, if we abandon this place. Will there be another GTA database we can all contribute to? With all the articles we've made here?

I simply cannot stomach the idea of leaving this place and yet having nowhere else to go. A lot of people have put in a lot of effort here. It would be a massive shame to just give up. So, any clarification will be much appreciated and hopefully sweeten the bitter pill.

Thanks!

IdesofMarch 13:16, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, friend. And it goes without saying that when the move comes, I'll go along too. There is no point sticking with a site that doesn't respect its users and claims to listen to them whilst flatly ignoring all of their concerns and fears. This community of ours is a great thing, all of us are drawn together by a common love of the greatest series of games ever created (In my mind at least) and it would be very regrettable if there was a deep, irrepairable schism simply because this site is ran by fools. IdesofMarch 13:42, October 4, 2010 (UTC)IdesofMarch
 * The idea is that we would move to a new site, taking a copy of all content with us. However, some people might stay here and continue to run this copy. This is why we want to make sure everyone comes over to the new site, rather than trying to run two wikis in competition with each other. Gboyers talk 13:33, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Randomtomato 15:55, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Would like to see you move away from Wikia as that skin is just stupid, although i would like to see GTW in the Wikipedia-esque format because its easy to use. Randomtomato 15:56, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Monobook, the skin formerly used by Wikipedia, and Vector (Wikipedia's new skin) will be both available to anyone self-hosting and using the latest MediaWiki software. 19:12, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea to me.

 * 1) I really haven't liked a lot of Wikia's recent changes and I hope we can find somewhere better or else just self host. I really don't think the Oasis skin is a good skin for wikis though. I wonder if we could get in withGTANet somehow?
 * 2) I guess I really think we should leave Wikia behind. I'm sure we could do better elsewhere. It probably doesn't help that the subjects of this wiki are not as family friendly, so they don't even want us here.
 * 3) I'll be sure to go wherever you go.

ZedoMann 20:30, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

UPDATE: 3 Wikis already left
Club Penguin Wiki, Apple Wiki and Casualty wiki have left. Soon, more wikis will either: Move to another Wiki farm, or create their own site. Any thoughts on the exodus ahead? Kanzler31 22:53, October 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * We are toying with the idea. I want to make sure we make the right decision for THIS wiki and its community, not just blindly follow others without thinking carefully about the consequences. There is still time for Wikia to make this right, and that would be the simplest option for everyone. Gboyers talk 00:07, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Go for it!
We should leave Wikia. I have checked out the new skin and it dosen't look all great. I enjoy this current skin anyway. If you leave, I will go to the new site. Just make sure that you let everyone know when the exodus will take place.Klltr 00:39, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Hard decision
Edit:Think what any GTA protagonist would do,would he/she get pushed around by the boss
 * 1) This skin is like our identity, why should we get it taken by wikia.Of course wikia would like it they're all for tidyness and stuff like that.
 * 2) This is where its hard if we stay all kinds of problems will arise, however if we go the 2nd fork will probably get more popularity than us.However I think we should move.
 * 3) Hell yeah!

Please stay on Wikia
The information for everything on this site is very valuable for my videos. Also it's cool to read all of the trivia. But if you leave gta.wikia.com, I will go with you as well.

ZDUPH 10:09, October 5, 2010 (UTC)ZDUPH


 * You can still put videos on our new site (if that's what you meant), and all the trivia will be there as well. Chimpso (Talk) 10:16, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes - we are not closing down, we would just be moving to our own website away from Wikia. Gboyers talk 11:43, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Do it
More than anything else, we can't just let Wikia push us around. We need to be aggressive! Maybe then other wikis will follow our example. Sgt. S.S. 17:16, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

I think were all ready.
I like it to be honest. Its pretty natural If they need to, everything needs to grow wings and fly. Its a risk. But due to the growth of population in Grand theft auto. I think we can. I would move with you guys because you give us alot of information and is a fun website to be on.
 * 1) What do you think of the Oasis skin?
 * 1) Do you think GTW should leave Wikia?
 * 1) If we moved, would you move with us, rather than staying on gta.wikia.com?

I have one question: What will the new website be called? TheJustinAllenK 20:58, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Probably grandtheftautowiki.com/net, gtawiki.com/net.


 * We'll let you know, don't worry. Chimpso (Talk) 00:14, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Move to neoseeker?
Neoseeker already have their own GTA Wiki. Anyone think we can merge with them? Kanzler31 22:08, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * No. We should become our own website, with nothing else holding us down. MAINEiac4434 00:11, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Does not feel right.


 * 1) I really dont care,but if GTW does I think it'll be harder to find us


 * 1) Absolutely

GTA Wikia is really, Truly, my most favorite wikia.

Reasons Why you should stay:

I use gta wikia to hat important photos for Guns, Cars, Radio Stations, And Locations. And without gta wikia, I don't know anywhere else that provides such amazing, knoledgable information on gta wikia if there's anything that I can do to help keep the information on this site intact, I'd do it so if you need assistance, go to my talk page on my profile.

I sometimes just like to explore this wikia, and I've learned so much more about gta than I actually could playing it. And if you do move, I would really like to be told on when, or where you will be moving, this is an amazing site with great gta information. It's my lifeline to gta pictures, mysteries, and information.--Lee R. Writer of Catsville Series, & eventual cv game.


 * We're not closing down, just moving away from wikia. You'll be able to do all the things on the new wiki that you can do here. We'll let you know when and where we are moving when we are ready. Chimpso (Talk) 00:56, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Ghost Leader's 2 Cents
1. What do you think of the Oasis skin?
 * I don't like it at all.

2. Do you think GTW should leave Wikia?
 * If it means GTW remains about the users and content of the site instead of advertisements, then yes, I would support the move.

3. If we moved, would you move with us, rather than staying on gta.wikia.com?
 * You bet I'd move with you.

Ghost Leader 07:41, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

My two cents
For occasions like this, I prefer to watch from the sidelines unless I am asked to help, but I do have some beef with Wikia central regarding the quality of generated thumbnails; after thumbnails were rendered in poor quality again last month, I've attempted to contact staff members repeatedly, but I've failed to receive any response. It's not enough to have me raging to leave, but it does show how ignorant staff members may be to the point they even ignore your messages to them. The fiasco with Oasis may also be, in part, a result of this problem.

I'm not fond of uprooting myself to another wiki, but I can migrate when the situation demands it. I have contributed heavily to Wikipedia years ago (just when I simultaneously wrote my first articles in this very Wikia), but when stringent copyright guidelines saw much of my screenshot deleted en masse, I was spurred to simply leave Wikipedia behind and move to Wikia. If Wikia is hell bent on pushing forward a heavily commercial-driven web design that impedes the presentation of an article, there is no doubt that I will move to a better wiki, especially one that is readily forked from Wikia.

Still, I'm not going to say if I'll leave or not. I'll just wait and see. - ZS 09:11, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * To add to my first bit, the thumbnail lightbox is also something that I've never liked. While it can be argued that it's for user friendliness, it would had been better if they had an option to disable it for those who do not have a need for it. I've recommendation this option to a corresponding blog post, but I've never been referred back to. That was the first sign that Wikia is screwing up. - ZS 09:43, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

My Answers
1. What do you think of the Oasis skin?

i think its a sleeker look, but much less efficient :(

2. Do you think GTW should leave Wikia?

well thats up to the admins i suppose but under these circumstances, yes i think you should move it.

3. If we moved, would you move with us, rather than staying on gta.wikia.com?

without thinking twice, yes i will be apart of the new wiki if you move! Mega Hyper Nova 09:21, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Input on situation
1. New Layout -- Meh.

2. Independence from Wikia -- Go for it.

3. Loyalty -- New Grand Theft Wiki FTW.

--Gsu eagle 31049 15:55, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

1. Rubbish. Too web 2.0 in appearance only. Ruins the look and feel of the site. 2. Absolutely. If they didn't even give us the option to keep the old theme, and possibly to pay a small fee to stop adverts (which I would gladly pay) then clearly they look out only for their own interests. 3. Sure. I love this whole series of games, and I especially enjoy the community that's been created on this site.


 * Wikia give small wikis the choice to pay a small fee to disable adverts. However, since we are quite a large wiki, they make a lot more money from us, so they don't give us that option. Gboyers talk 19:55, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

A comment from Wikia
Hi all, I just wanted to comment on the thought that you won't be able to give this wiki a distinctive look. I've been looking at backgrounds and color schemes over the last few days... the new Theme Designer makes it very easy to create something individual. There are so many wallpapers out there that would make a fantastic background for the wiki. If you'd like help with that, please let me know.

And on a more general note, I just want to say that I hope you will stick around on Wikia. It's a big change that we are going through, but I honestly believe that it will result in a better Wikia for GTA and all communities here. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 18:39, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input - I appreciate your work over the years, and I have enjoyed being part of Wikia, but this is a bit deeper than you seem to be making out. I understand the level of customisation available, however this is only a tiny part of the issue. The smaller content area, image uploader usernames in articles, adverts getting more and more priority over content, the demotion of our logo to being the size of a page title, the wiki navigation being invisible compared to the wikia navigation, the talk page button being tiny, the history button being hidden away - these issues are all worth kicking up a fuss over. With this feedback being ignored by Wikia en-masse, there is a big lack of trust and it can probably be safe to say you won't change these things ever, and will probably bring in worse changes and even more adverts in the future. It's not a case of "getting used to it", it's that the content and community will be worse than it is now. If the suggestion is that we can't leave, then we would be entirely at the mercy of Wikia, and that's not why we're here. There are dozens of users just on this page that have expressed deep dissatisfaction - not just with the new skin but with Wikia as a whole. How can you justify ignoring it? As the leader of this community, I can not ignore its voice. Gboyers talk 19:52, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Changed my mind
Guys, I think you're overreacting a little. It's honestly not a big deal, and certainly not worth leaving Wikia over. Yes, the layout will be altered, but underneath it all, we'll still be the old GTA Wiki.

I'd like to rebut a couple of points, as well: Seriously, leaving won't accomplish anything. The skin will take some getting used to, like the new one on Wikipedia. I didn't like the new Wikipedia skin at first, but now I've adapted to it, it's fine for me. It'll be the same deal here.
 * "Wikia will remove our CSS customisation options. All we can customise are a pre-determined set of colours and backgrounds. We are unable to have our distinctive banner or similar big logos or customisations." We will still have customisation options, certainly enough to make the wiki distinctive, anyway.
 * "This skin removes Grand Theft Wiki's identity, and just makes us look like part of one central Wikia site" Guys, we are part of Wikia Gaming. Why would we want to look different to Wikia if we're part of Wikia?
 * "The entire top section of every page is about Wikia and linking to other Wikia sites. The Grand Theft Wiki logo and our navigation is placed part-way down the page, making it a lot less obvious" We are part of Wikia, so I feel it's only right that we link to other wikis. Our navigation still works, doesn't it? Regardless of how "obvious" it is?
 * "The talk page button is now hidden. It's a tiny icon near the search bar, completely separate from the edit button." Does it still link to the talk page? Yes? Then what's the problem?

So, in conclusion, are we going to act like a bunch of children over this, or are we going to be mature, and just give it a go? Sgt. S.S. 18:54, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * I absolutely understand your point. When Monaco came in, it took a bit of getting used to, but we saw it was for the better. That is not the case with Oasis, which has so many major flaws and will not benefit us. As for being part of wikia, I strongly disagree. We are our own wiki, our own community. We were created separately, and will continue to be separate. Wikia is our host, and a network to which we affiliate, and it has brought us many benefits. However, those benefits are being outweighed by the problems, disrespect and lack of control this community has in its own content. It's not like we're just a group of pages on Wikipedia, we are our own website with our own customs, culture, leaders, helpers, policy and lots of other things - we still deserve our identity. Not every wiki has a strong community like ours. The navigation might technically work, but if people can't see it easily, they won't use it, so it doesn't work. As for the talk page button, it no longer encourages users to discuss articles, it's only there if people know it is. I know it's there and I still have trouble finding it when I want to discuss an article. There are many other issues (see my reply to Sarah above) which I think are worth being upset about, and the voice of this community is clear - they don't want it. We've tried it out, we've given feedback, and Wikia have ignored us. I do not want to be on a site where the feedback of thousands of users is just ignored and dismissed out of hand. Gboyers talk 19:52, October 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I Also can understand this guy, but the Wikipedia example wasn't the best. One note: The new skin is optional and wasn't that bad (in fact I like it) while on the other hand, Oasis is MANDATORY, and it is a terrible, ugly looking skin.Kanzler31 22:40, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Stay
The skin isn't even that bad, creating your own site will just cause you problems and eventually it's just going to fail, just stay on wikia. The Tom 19:55, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * What makes you so sure we'd fail at our own site? Plus Wikia doesn't even like us here.
 * "...and complete disrespect for this wiki and its community." ZedoMann 00:04, October 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * ZedoMann is right - if enough people move over to the 'new' site, then we'll be absolutely fine. We'll have all the content, images and even user accounts from here, plus whatever skin, extensions and settings we want. Those that choose to stay will find themselves editing an empty wikia, with almost all of the regular users agreeing to move with us to be away from Wikia and run this site properly. If we stay, we'll all just be under the thumb of Wikia, and the many unhappy users will just leave altogether. I'm just trying to do the best thing for this wiki and this community. If staying at Wikia turns out to be the better option, then that's what we will do. Gboyers talk 00:35, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

Why are you all been so pathetic the there's nothing wrong with Oasis it just a more modern Monaco. The Tom 21:55, October 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * There is no reason to assume that Grand Theft Wiki would fail as a stand alone website, especially as it did so before coming here to Wikia. The people who have voiced their opinions to stay, include yourself, have completely missed our argument for moving away from Wikia. You think that the Oasis skin is the reason, well its not. It is, however, the straw that broke the camels back. This is about Wikia constantly breaking its promises to this community through its continued increasing of advertising in the content space, something they said wouldn't happen, and their continuous lack of communication with the individual wikis that actually make Wikia money. We have voiced our dislike of Oasis along with countless others over the years that we've been with Wikia and they've completely ignored us and carried about their own business. The whole idea about a wiki is that the community gets to decide, but on Wikia the community is ignored. If Wikia had not constantly broken its own promises to us and constantly ignored the concerns of not only out community but others too, then it would not have the current problems with wikis leaving. A-Dust 23:55, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Sites shouldn't have more ads than content, and since this skin just broke the camel's back why not try our own place where we could only take space for ads where needed (if needed) and probably even have a nicer site? ZedoMann 05:21, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * There arn't more ads than content it's not even bad your just all been pathetic because you don't like change. The Tom 10:02, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Actually I love change. I've been beta-testing the Oasis skin for weeks, and I've had time to "get used to it". Although it is pretty, it is difficult to use and makes the wiki worse. Things like hiding the talk-page button and showing usernames on image captions are all stupid changes, not good changes that we'll get used to eventually. We never said there were more ads than content. If you are logged out, you see a lot of adverts, including some inside the content area - on big pages you get them showing halfway down the page!! This is unacceptable, and goes against what the wikia founder personally promised me (at the top of this page). That is why we have moved. Gboyers talk 10:26, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

I've Also Change My Mind
this editor is pretty easy to use, i know because i'm an admin of my own wiki, My Wiki, and its not just pre-determend colors you can insert any hex code you want, so there is a bit of customization to this but i really think the staff should give us more options, like maybe an update? anyways i'm staying i like the look i gave my wiki, oh and backgrounds are also customizable :) Mega Hyper Nova  22:44, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

My Answers
--Hehe5 04:29, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. I think it works for some wikis, but not the GTA Wiki. With all out tables, galleries and single images, it would be too squishes.
 * 2. Yes, but only if we regain traffic.
 * 3. I would definitely move.

skin
I hate this skin so I am moving away from this wiki as soon as the option to use Monaco is removed. -- PK2PK2 08:20, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

To answer the questions...
Sgt. S.S. 16:35, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) I think the new skin is okay, the only real problem I have with it is the longer load times.
 * No, not at all. Leaving won't accomplish anything. Plus, if Wikia wouldn't close gta.wikia.com, it might even be counter-productive.
 * 1) I don't want you to leave, but if push came to shove, I suppose I'd move with the community.


 * Technically, leaving will acomplish a lot. We will have full control over our wiki, we will be able to customise every aspect of the wiki, not tied down by wikia regulation and staff. We will be our own wiki, and many people will move with us instead of staying on this copy, which will hardly see any activity. Chimpso (Talk) 01:46, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

It does look junked up. I didn't spend a lot of time looking at it, but I can see the problems. Yes. A big fail on wikia's part for not understanding the concept of wikis--content created by users for users. Not listening to member feedback on future direction is like cutting their own throat. Of course support the new site. Again, the people who come to the gta wiki for info often contribute. I imagine most people would go to the new site, word would spread quickly and google results would change relatively quickly too. Yaksox 05:25, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) What do you think of the Oasis skin?
 * 1) What do you think of the Oasis skin?
 * 1) If we moved, would you move with us, rather than staying on gta.wikia.com?

screw the oasis skin, how dare they. dont be forced to leave this wiki, use a petition and make a certain amount of people to sign it! good luck... dont give up!Jzawo 06:45, October 8, 2010 (UTC)je if you were to move, send me the http/address to my email englishjzawo@y7mail.com, i love gta wiki and im stuck to it!

We'll let you all know when we move. Chimpso (Talk) 08:05, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

oasis?terrible....the most terrible wikia skin. yes.i support the new site. Gta_indonesia_mania 19:28, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) What do you think of the Oasis skin?
 * 1) If we moved, would you move with us, rather than staying on gta.wikia.com?

I think GTW SHOULD leave wikia, because if you look at ait the benifits are greater than the cons. Mabye after copying everything into the new site, delete everything on this site rendering it useless. Second, i would follow wikia to the new site, and mabye you should create a youtube channel and post videos advertising the wiki. Third, I HATE OASIS SKIN!, it horrible it destroys the sense of well GTA, i try to actually avoid the site now because of the oasis skin, as much as it hurts. Well thats it come on move! what are you waiting for!!!!! Worldwar77 01:06, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Bluesboyjr's opinions

 * 1) I set my Preferences to the new skin and browsed this Wiki for a while, and I can't say I like it. My biggest issue is loading times - each page takes noticeably longer to turn up, though this may be a temporary problem or a problem on my end. The option of backgrounds is a bit of a con, as you can only see a small slit at the top and bottom. I can't see your issues with advertising - the only ones I saw where the one in the sidebar (which is unfortunately bigger and moved to the right for some reason); although, I haven't checked what the site would look like to a non-member. Other problems are relatively minor - each image on a page unnecessarily gives the name of its uploader, the articles do seem a little bit squished, and some articles may need some time and effort rearrange, e.g. tables. However, a lot of my issues can be rooted down to my overfamiliarity with Monaco.
 * 2) My opinions are quite split on this one. On one hand, I'd like the Monaco skin back as much as the next guy, and a little bit of independence never hurt anybody. On the other hand, you have your issues with maintenence. Would advertising alone keep you out of the red? I know of some successful indepedent fanwikis (my favourite would be the beautifully organised Homestar Runner Wiki, but they often have to rely on donations. Plus, you have your problem of reduced traffic - a lot of fans searching for a GTA wiki would end up on the old Wikia site. Have you considered some sort of a partnership with another GTA fansite (the most popular I can think of is GTA Net)?
 * 3) If the Wiki moves, I'll move with it. Simple as.   Bluesboyjr 10:51, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Leave
I Would leave. I Have been using this site for over two years now (without a account) and when i heard about this i just had to sign up and show my support for leaving. grand theft wiki has been great help for me completing games and finding out information i didn't know about gta. the only problem is that people would still use this site rather than the new one. however you could advertise it on your youtube channel telling people to go to the new site. also the site just looks wrong like this. so go on grand theft wiki leave wikia! GTADUDE360 12:36, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

What do you think of the Oasis skin? I don't like it as much compared to the original skin, you're right it removes much of the identity of the site.

Do you think GTW should leave Wikia? Certainly if it managed to maintain its reliability, community and its individuality.

If we moved, would you move with us, rather than staying on gta.wikia.com? ''Of course, here you will have people with some very entertaining opinions, and it is always interesting to have a variety of differentiated people on the forums. If I were to stay on gta.wikia.com, then I think the forums would be much quieter. The only problem would be that if we were to move, then more people would come here, so you would have to find a way to alert people that the people and information from this website to go to grandtheftwiki.com. AtomicLlama 13:55, October 9, 2010 (UTC)''

Been trying out Oasis...
And I don't like it. This hardly looks like a wiki anymore. I could barely find the talk page link. Why is Wikia screwing us over??? MAINEiac4434 18:32, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

1.I liked the old skin very much and if the new format does not allow the old skin to be diplayed then no i dont like:P

2.No i think we should stay at wikia

3.If we go independent then yes i would move with you guys

Hmm
What do I think of the new skin? Its okay, I prefer the old one better though.

Should GTW Leave wiki? Hmm, I really dont know, there are the advantages and disadvantages.

And finally, Yes, I'd go to the new site, but I will still also lurk around the old one too.

Deathstar32 21:38, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Leave
Hello guys, how is everyone doing? Moving to your own site with hosting is the smartest step you can make, it will give you leverage and full control of your site. Your site is featured as a direct link on one of my forums, at GTAChronicles.com -- because out of all the gtawiki's out there I have but the upmost respect for your profesionalism and the quality of your content. With that said, it also gives my members a place to get the knowledge they need about their favorite characters and some history of what makes GTA so darn awesome. I would like to wish you guys the best of luck, and on whatever you decide to do? Rememeber. The community will follow.

Regards Mike Mikegtac 01:12, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your support, Mike. It means a lot to know that everything we do is worthwhile, and that fans appreciate the effort that everyone in our community puts in. I think the opinion on this talk page is clear, the users have spoken, and I'll make sure to keep everyone informed about our new location. Gboyers talk 01:19, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Leaving is a better option than staying here.
I really hate it how Wikia decided to mess up so badly. I absolutely loved the Vocaloid wiki and I don't know how that's going to turn out once they find out it's switching to Oasis.

1. I don't like it personally because it promotes advertising over content, which is just wrong in my opinion.

2. Leave Wikia because it would be like living in hell when this happens.

3. I've been a frequent contributor here, and yes, I will go to the new site and abandon this place when Oasis comes into effect. Fluffy Clouds 03:46, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Moved

 * Thank you everyone for your support. It means a lot that you all care so much about this wiki, and it makes everything that this community does worthwhile.


 * Given the overwhelming part of the community being in favour of leaving Wikia, we have now moved!


 * You can now find Grand Theft Wiki at www.GrandTheftWiki.com


 * Please join us on the new site, instead of staying here. Re-register your account under the same name, and join in the celebration! Thanks everyone!

Gboyers talk 10:05, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * So what will happen to this one? Will we just leave it as is? Or should we copy the latest versions of each page, and paste them onto the new site, and then delete the pages on Wikia? Or do we just leave it be, and let the few people who didn't come with us to grandtheftwiki.com maintain gta.wikia.com? MAINEiac4434 03:27, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikia will keep this site open, and will ban anyone who deleted pages or makes it unusable for those users who choose to stay. If you want to take that risk, go ahead. If not, try and encourage everyone to go to grandtheftwiki.com instead of here. I'd also support changing the name of this site to GTA Wikia not Grand Theft Wiki. Gboyers talk 08:50, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, lets just keep Wikia as-is, but make sure to bring all the images over (some pages are still missing them on the new site) and change the name of this site to GTA Wikia. MAINEiac4434 13:43, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * What is wrong with this one, nothings changed on itNT92 16:41, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * What is wrong with this one, nothings changed on itNT92 16:41, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

1-It sucks

2-Yeah

3-I dunno

From Wikia
First thing, Gboyers: sorry I missed your reply above. Yes, I understand that the customization isn't the only issue for you, and I respect your choice to edit anywhere you want of course. But I very much hope you will come back to us, obviously you are a highly respected editor and not someone we would ever want to see move on from Wikia. This new look is very much a work in progress, so it's possible some of your concerns will be addressed as we find out how it works in practice... I hope you'll keep an eye on progress over the next few months.

That said, if you have decided to move on, then it's no longer your right to decide the future of this wiki. Which is why Uberfuzzy has reverted changes where necessary, and removed the rights of those using this wiki to promote another.

For those who have decided to stay, you may want to consider what theme to set here - possibly something more specific to GTA? I'm not sure if you will need new admins, or if any of the current admins will decide to stay (or to edit on both wikis) -- please let me know if you need any help with that.

I know this is a hard time for this wiki, but I believe it can come out the other side just as sucessful as it has been in the past. Thanks all -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 22:08, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your reply again. I'd like to reiterate that this is all in the hands of the community, it's not staff members making the decisions. The community demanded things that wikia couldn't give, so I have provided that. Each user can choose whether to use gta.wikia or grandtheftwiki.com - and I intend to let everyone make their own decision. I am aware of one staff member who would like to maintain this, and we will work together to ensure that the users have what they want.


 * As for myself, I was going to continue editing on my other wikis, but I can't say I can support Uberfuzzy's decision to block me from the whole of Wikia, for a length of time without an explanation, when it was plainly obvious I wasn't exactly a vandal. I will take the time to make my own decision, as I encourage everyone in this community to do.


 * However, I do request that this wiki ceases to use the GrandTheftWiki logo, mark and name. This is unfair and illogical, its continued use would be a deliberate attempt to confuse users, and not the right thing to do. With the new skin, it's a perfect time for this wiki to grow into its own identity, instead of misappropriating the identity of the community that has moved. Before Grand Theft Wiki, this site was the GTA Wikia, and I'd suggest that as an appropriate and accurate name with its own identity, a brand to build on.


 * Personally, I have had many good things to say about Wikia and its staff in the past. But with Angela gone, huge changes being forced upon users despite thousands of voices to the contrary, and (unless the name is corrected) deliberately misleading users for views, I can't support that. As for a "work in progress", weeks of beta testing and the volume of feedback you've received surely must have some impact on this rollout?


 * Thank you for your understanding on this, and I hope this mess is sorted out more amicably than by Uberfuzzy's merciless and insulting methods. Gboyers talk 00:24, October 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am sorry if I sound a little rude in this reply, but I'm guessing you want a frank and truthful answer, so here goes.


 * When I first join a wiki, my main focus is on the content and how much I can learn/add. After a few weeks of that, I get used to the community. If I don't like it, I leave. If I find the community welcoming and helpful, I stay. Simple as that. Now imagine you have been a happy member of a wiki for almost 2 years. You've enjoyed it and have had fun learning and helping. You decide to take a short break and when you come back after a couple of weeks, everyones gone. The staff you have enjoyed working with and helping. Your user friends. Everyone who made the wiki enjoyable has suddenly gone. And there is no explanation. No site notice to tell you. You think you have been abandoned by the people you worked with. You search the wiki for hours until you finally found out what happened. You are probarbly thinking where I'm going with this, let me tell you. Users have the right to know that the community they have enjoyed and worked with have moved and where they have moved. If we give no apparent reason, no immidiate sign that we have moved, what does that make other people think about us? It makes them think we have abandoned them. Left them forever. And how does that make us as staff feel?


 * We do this because we want to. We are voulenteers. We edit because we want to see our wikis grow. We spend countless hours doing this, hours that could be spent doing much more in our personal lives. When you become a staff member, you have even more responsibility. You have achieved something great and want to continue. Remember that, unlike you, who are paid a salary for your work, we work for free. And I think we should at least have the right to let people know what we've done and where we've gone. Sometimes we even lose money, such as self-hosting. But we still stick by our wikis. Because we enjoy them and their users.


 * I am not going to start insulting the Oasis skin. Because I know you will not reply if I do. But please do remember the rights that users have. And the results that they expect.


 * Thanks for reading, you don't have to reply, I would appreciate it if you did, but you don't have to. I am hoping that we can at least put up a site notice explaining why we have moved. Chimpso (Talk) 10:21, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I most certainly do respect and remember that you are volunteers. After all, the only reason I'm here is that I was a volunteer on a wiki for years before joining Wikia. Wikis are important to me in so many ways, and the communities that use them are the most critical part of that. But, when it comes down to it, my loyalty must be to the community here. I'll do all I can to help them, and support things like the new look that I believe are going to benefit the community as a whole. Uber may not have been communicative in his blocking, but he was certainly looking out for the whole Wikia community by blocking when he saw damaging code being added to a CSS sheet by an admin.
 * I understand the desire of those leaving a wiki to leave messages for future or returning visitors, but I think it's also fair that if you decide to move on then you shouldn't be able to determine the future of that which you have chosen to leave behind. And the remaining, new, or future community has the right to expect not to have a broken wiki or to have ads on every page for a competitor.
 * I realize that this is a different perspective than yours, but I hope you will understand that it comes from passion for the Wikia community and a desire to help this wiki recover and grow -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 23:55, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for replying. And I do understand that your loyalty is with wikia. But really the people who use the wiki must make up their own minds. As Gboyers said before, we are not posting a message saying "Forget this wiki, come to our new one!" We are just letting visitors and users know that the community they worked with has moved. We respect user decisions. If they wish to stay here, they can. If they want to move with us because they are used to our community, rules and practices, they can come with us. Even if the notice was only up for a couple of weeks, that would most likley be enough. We are not forcing users to move with us. The whole move was in the hands of the community. And they agreed a move would be a much better alternative to staying on a wiki littered with ads and an undesirable skin. Improvement is a point of view. To a small percentage of people, the new look is great. For a larger percentage, the new look could be better, but is alright. For the largest by far percentage, the new look is disgusting, puts ads over content and makes the wiki look horrible. One of the other main reasons we moved is because of the restrictive new policies. We are only able to customise colours and backround images. You in wikia staff believe (or perhaps don't believe, but pretend to do so as you may become redundant from your jobs otherwise) that this will result in a better community, but when 95 percent of the community disagree, does it really make things better? In addition to this, I am not liking the attitude staff are presenting. Although both you and Sarah's (see here) comments seem warm and civil, it is not hard to recognise the true meaning behing them; "We want to make money, we don't want people to move with you, we want them to see our ads which nobody clicks on anyway". Also, wikia staff by no means outrank admins on idividual wikis. Nor do you have a right to remove rights from year long admins over a site notice. These wikis belong to the community, not Wikia, and we are able to customise our CSS, templates and sitenotices any way we chose. I am guessing if a smaller wiki moved, such as a wiki with only 50-100 pages, you would not care less, as they don't make much money for you and there is no problem with them leaving.

Anyways, away from all this banter. I just want two questions answered in yes or no format, with brief reasons given as to why, and not some pre-written reply either:


 * 1. Will anything we do or say convince you to not make Oasis go through?
 * 2. Will Grand Theft Wiki (and other wikis) be able to post a notice to the communty here that we have moved?

Anyways, I apoligise if I sound aggressive, but this is a very frustrating situation, and the people who lose out are the users. I definetly can't stand seeing everyone's hard work being given to some random person in the community who wants to be in charge. I'm hoping we can show a site notice, even a anon notice, saying that the community has moved. It's the least you could do for us for all the years of hard work we've put in. Chimpso (Talk) 07:28, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I meant to repost this from the copy of the above on Simpsons Wiki...
 * I realize that it's not possible to convince you of my motivation... I can only say that I both believe that the new look is right for Wikia and the whole Wikia community, and that I passionately care about the communities that have been my focus for four years or more (eight, if you count Wikipedia).
 * On your questions:
 * 1. No, we still plan to do the next stage of the release next week. We are still gathering feedback, click-data, and other information, to help us in developing this skin... but we are ready to try this on a larger scale now.
 * 2. Anyone who has moved will be able to write about that in their blogs, forums, or other suitable place. We ask that you don't put a notice on all pages (sitenotice, template change, or other), or add links on the wiki's main page to a competitive wiki. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 22:39, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

The future direction of this wiki
OK, with mass deletions going on, it seems we are at the point where admins here need to decide. Are you willing to either carry on building this wiki as a full resource about Grand Theft Auto, or to leave it alone to carry on without you? Or, are you intending to try and damage and diminish this wiki? If the latter, then you are no longer welcome on Wikia. I am removing Gboyer's rights here and removing all bureaucrat rights until this is settled.

Gboyers, I know you are claiming to be deleting in order to change the direction of this wiki, but let's be frank: that's just a way to remove this wiki in favour of the fork. If you want to create a separate wiki for mods, you are welcome to. This is not it.

Everyone else, you are very welcome to stay, or to keep your rights and edit elsewhere - as long as you do not harm this wiki or prevent those who wish to continue here to do so. As always, the decision is yours and we respect that. Staying here to damage the wiki is not an option.

Thanks -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 14:51, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sannse, I absolutely understand your good intentions, but you don't seem to be in posession of all of the facts, and are making assumptions.


 * Firstly, there is the difference in opinion between GTW's staff and active community, and Wikia. The community has decided to change host, whilst Wikia sees us as an illegitimate fork to be denied and competed against. I can see we aren't going to agree on that point, but note it nontheless.


 * Behind the scenes, two GTW staff have expressed a desire to maintain this Wikia site in some form, in addition to GTW. They decided to run this site as a modding-focused wiki. For GTA, modding is a huge subject area that accounts for over 90% of traffic at many GTA fansites. The external GTAModding wiki is a purely technical resource, and does not provide the community with the information, directories and support that we could.


 * It was agreed that this wikia site would cover everything to do with modding and technical support, whilst GTW would cover the more general storyline and end-user information. By separating the subject area into two very real wikis, we felt it would offer better experience for all those concerned.


 * This means that this Wikia site would continue to run, would continue to maintain the vast majority of its content, and would be opened up to a subject area largely untouched at the moment. It would work in a close partnership with GTW, referring users in both directions, without competing or splitting the user base into two.


 * GTA-mysteries asked to lead this new mod site, and was appointed the bureaucrat for the new wiki, and decided on the name Grand Theft Wiki Mods. He has taken the lead on this project and we voluntarily relinquished control to him.


 * He requested that a selection of superfluous and extraneous content (that we have been considering removing anyway) should be removed by our bot. The deleted content consisted of the various lists of fictional in-game businesses, most of which are only written on the side of vans and are not involved in the storyline, and the plethoria of picture-only shop fascades that are not enterable and have no relevance to the game or interest to people. (He gave me rights to be able to effect this).


 * I completely disagree with your assumption that my only goal in life is to destory or "remove" this site or gain some form of notoriety. The community agreed to move, and the staff agreed it would be beneficial to the community to keep this site as a resource, but focus it more on the modding and support side than the less-technical informational side.


 * There are a few other problems with Wikias stance on this:
 * "Wikia is a collaborative publishing platform that enables communities to discover, create and share content on any topic in any language." - The Wiki Creation Policy doesn't say anything about "if Wikia staff like the idea", so I'm not sure with what authority you are imposing your will on this community.


 * "Text on Wikia sites is available under a free content license, meaning the information you put on the wiki can be copied and reused by anyone. This is very important to our goal of increasing the amount of free content in the world" - This doesn't tally with your intention to disrupt Grand Theft Wiki, maintain duplicate content, and split the community.


 * "Wikia are community projects" doesn't match up with you ignoring the community's desire to not be subject to the Oasis skin nor the feature changes nor terms of use changes that Wikia is forcing.


 * "Consensus and cooperation should be the primary means for organizing a wiki." - this is EXACTLY what we have been doing all along, and is precisely what my main aims amount to. After a lengthy run-up to the new skin and features, it was clear that a huge portion of the community was vocally dissatisfied with them. Yet Wikia has completely ignored the consensus, refused to cooperate or compromise, and are forcing its will on the community. Banning and demoting staff members, altering content and structure, these are not the actions of hosts, but of an absolutist, dogmatic, authoritarian regime, completely opposed to its community for its own ends. Don't be that.


 * Either Wikia agrees to host this community under its own banner of community consensus and cooperation, working with GTW to maintain a huge, great and useful database of modding and technical information, or it ceases to host it altogether. If you choose to ignore this community yet again, then we are going to be forced to go down the legal route of pursuing the many licencing problems there are with the content on this wikia site.

My preferred outcome is that Wikia listen to the community, rectify the issues with the new design, alter its terms of service to put the community in its own hands, enable the features that we value, give us the option to disable or remove the ones that do not suit us and then I would be more than happy to host the site here (so long as the community agreed). Please consider that completely reasonable proposal, please follow your own rules and principles, please be a good host not a tyrant, please be what you set out to be. Gboyers talk 18:34, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought the wiki purely for modding the game was a good idea. I even got started on it.--spaceeinstein 18:57, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow, can someone really be this stupid? If you want to move to another site, you have absolutely no right to say what happens to the community (and more relevantly, the content) that you're leaving behind. If you want a modding wiki, start a new one. You can't possibly expect to change the subject of this one, delete most of the content and get away with it. Say whatever you want but that's the most transparent attempt at eliminating the competition that I have ever seen and I hope you weren't expecting to fool anyone. Free content is a fundamental principle of wikis and your threats to sue are frankly laughable. I've been a long time reader of this wiki and sympathised with your position - indeed I prefer the old skin and would have moved to the new site. But then you seemed to completely lose your mind, vandalised this wiki and are now spouting utter rubbish that is so ridiculously and obviously nonsense that there's really no need to address individual points. I think I'll stick with the sane guys, even if the skin will take some getting used to. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how most of the readers and lurkers feel, but I'm sure you can see for yourself with the visitor stats on your new domain. Good luck with your site but please leave us alone. You don't speak for us and as far as I'm concerned, good riddance. Rodney88 12:47, October 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * The people that leads this site are the same people that leads the other site. We don't want competition within ourselves, we want to be supplementary. Unless you want to lead this ghost town, what you have said is against your interests. Is it not obvious that having two sites with the exact same content is unmanageable and unnecessary?--spaceeinstein 13:05, October 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * What, you're trying to say this is simply a staffing problem? I'm sure there's plenty of people willing to help look after this wiki. Look, it's as simple as this: if you no longer wish to stay here, sod off and stop sabotaging it for people that do. Yes, of course it'd be better as a single wiki but it's too late for that - you've already made the wiki fork into two wikis. Users will now have to visit two sites or choose one wiki over the other. And over time, the latter is inevitable. But that still doesn't mean you get to choose for us. We, as individual visitors, get to choose which wiki we go to. And as much as I hate the new skin, the way you lot have been behaving, you've done Wikia a massive favour by making them look like the lesser evil. Rodney88 14:01, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

However, Wikia decided to keep running a copy of the wiki here as a fork from GTW. One of our staff members decided to stay behind and keep running this, and decided to point it more in the direction of mods. There was no vandalism, it was intended to be simply deleting the pages that are irrelevant to either wiki. I wasn't threatening to sue, please don't read too far into my comments. There are many issues with licencing on specific pages and images on this wiki. Many things are copyright and permission exists only to host these on GTW, not wikia's copy. I absolutely agree that each individual member of community has the right to choose whether they edit or not. We want to give everyone a fair chance to choose between the two, not for Wikia to commandeer the domain we've been using and pretend that the community is solely hosted there. I absolutely agree that Wikia are free to copy (most of) GTW's content and host their own version, with different staff. However, pretending that the site hasn't moved, denying the existance of GTW, and copying its logo and name are not fair actions on their behalf. Gboyers talk 14:19, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Rodney - I understand and sympathise with your position. I agree it would be so much better for there to be one single wiki which everyone worked on. I personally believe that having two duplicate wikis is damaging to the community, and I would rather there be one at a consensually-determined location. We (as a community) decided to change host. Not to fork, not to split into two, but to move. I think the community and staff combined do have the right to move the wiki - the community owns it, not Wikia. As above, that was not imply due to disliking the skin, but the control that Wikia is exerting over the wiki, removing more and more rights from the community and its staff, and ignoring the many comments on the skin and new features.


 * Gboyers: Actually, we see you as a totally legitimate fork. However, that doesn't mean that we should allow the parent wiki to be damaged in any way. The two admins who want to start a wiki about modding are very welcome to. In fact, I've created the wiki for them and will be happy to help with getting any content copied over they want to have there (with full attribution to this wiki of course).


 * For this wiki, my question to all admins remains. What do you want to do? Are you willing to stay and look after this wiki, with its current content and focus? Or are you willing to go and edit elsewhere leaving this wiki in peace? Or should I remove all rights now? This wiki will remain for readers like Rodney88, anons and casual editors, past editors, future editors, and anyone else who chooses to remain. They are a community too, and this is their wiki. – Sannse (help forum | blog) 23:27, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

The future direction of this wiki cont.
Sannse, you are not making things easier or better for us or anyone on here. I just needed to get that out. If we worked on the new wiki you created it would mean that there would be three Grand Theft Wikis. This is totally illogical and pointless. The formula for wikia is, more sites: more $. And it is perfectly clear that is what you are trying to achieve. As for this wiki, Gboyers may no longer be in charge, but we gave charge of the wiki to both Spaceeinstien and Gta-Mysteries. This is now their wiki and they are allowed to do anything they want to it. Did you even read Gboyers message?


 *  "Wikia is a collaborative publishing platform that enables communities to discover, create and share content on any topic in any language." - The Wiki Creation Policy doesn't say anything about "if Wikia staff like the idea", so I'm not sure with what authority you are imposing your will on this community.

Just because you don't like the idea, doesn't mean you have the authority to waltz in here and decicde to change everything to how you see fit. The decision to move was in the hands of the community and involved days of discussion between staff. This dicsuccion took place privatley and away from the wiki on our staff discussion forum.

Change can or cannot be damage. For example, you are doing the same thing that you claim us to be doing to GTW to all of wikia. The difference between you and us is that we listen to the community and do what they want.

Also, this is to Rodney88. I have seen a few "suck ups" in my time, but to be frank, you are special. If you think agreeing with wikia staff is going to make you something special on this site, don't bother. I'm not saying don't agree with them. I have no problems with anyone who wants to agree with wikia's point of view. But it's obvious from your tone and the way that you are acting that you are trying to suck up. That type of attitide would deny you a staff promotion on this wiki if we were still here. In addition to this, both you and Sannse have a very similar writing style. Not making any assumptions, but I feel like I'm talking to the same person. To support that:

''...spouting utter rubbish that is so ridiculously and obviously nonsense that there's really no need to address individual points. '' - That's what Rodney said, and exactly what you are doing, not bothering to adress each of our concerns. So I am respectfully asking you now to dissecet and answer each and every part of both Gboyers, Spaceeinstiens, my and anyone else who edit's heres concerns.

So anyways, to answer Rodney's(/Sannse's) concerns:


 * Wow, can someone really be this stupid? If you want to move to another site, you have absolutely no right to say what happens to the community (and more relevantly, the content) that you're leaving behind.

- The community that we created built this content. The staff that we left in charge have the authority to do this, and they did. They are still here, so you can't just revert things.


 * If you want a modding wiki, start a new one. You can't possibly expect to change the subject of this one, delete most of the content and get away with it.

- I don't know if you know this "Rodney", but modding is much more popular than general information. If wikia took this up as a modding site it would make them more money then GTW did. If they allowed the mod wiki to link to us, we would link GTW to them, giving them even more money and making everybody happy.


 * Say whatever you want but that's the most transparent attempt at eliminating the competition that I have ever seen and I hope you weren't expecting to fool anyone.

- We're not trying to fool anyone. We don't get paid for this. We are losing money by hosting ourselves. Wikia is trying to fool everyone with their optimism towards the new skin. They make money from it. We still don't make money from it and it makes things worse for us. What would you do in that situation?


 * Free content is a fundamental principle of wikis and your threats to sue are frankly laughable.

- This wiki's name, design, set up, practices, rules, principals and style are all copyright to Gboyers. Sueing is not laughable. If you are Sannse I assume you are just saying this because it would be Company vs Individuals.


 * I've been a long time reader of this wiki and sympathised with your position - indeed I prefer the old skin and would have moved to the new site.

- Then why don't you then? You don't understand that, as Gboyers explained, this is not just about the skin.


 * But then you seemed to completely lose your mind, vandalised this wiki and are now spouting utter rubbish that is so ridiculously and obviously nonsense that there's really no need to address individual points.

- We are not vandalising this wiki, just changing it into a modding one. As Gboyers explained, the pages that were deleted were from the "Business" category. Fictional in-game businesses and picture-only scenery has no use in a modding wiki, it even has no use in GTW. But we kept it and are still keeping it on the new wiki, as many users support it still being there. Another show of us listening to the community.


 * I think I'll stick with the sane guys, even if the skin will take some getting used to.

- Sanity is a point of view. We here at GTW think that wikia staff have compleatley lost their minds by making this skin mandatory. While they think that wikis and users who leave are insane because they don't give the skin a chance. It's not a matter of "Getting used to it" it's a matter of wikias broken promises and monmey driven regime that is concerning us.


 * I wouldn't be surprised if that's how most of the readers and lurkers feel, but I'm sure you can see for yourself with the visitor stats on your new domain.

- Actually, the visitor stats have been getting bigger by the thousand every day. We are slowly regaining our original userbase and this site has about 5 edits every five hours.


 * Good luck with your site but please leave us alone. You don't speak for us and as far as I'm concerned, good riddance.

- The "us" is the community, and we speak for you. We know we can't please everybody in the community, and we're not going to change everything just because one user strongly disagrees and all others strongly agree, that would be unfair and illogical.


 * What, you're trying to say this is simply a staffing problem? I'm sure there's plenty of people willing to help look after this wiki.

- No, that is not our problem, but is one of them. If wikia lets some random (as all dedicated users have left with us) adopt this wiki, they will take credit for all the previous communities hard work and the work all the staff put in. Does that really seem fair?


 * Look, it's as simple as this: if you no longer wish to stay here, sod off and stop sabotaging it for people that do.

- Abuse does not help. I can't believe Sannse(/you) did not bring that up in here comment. As explained above, we're not sabotaging it. You have wiki that's 'exactly the same to go to at www.grandtheftwiki.com. We are simply changing this into a modding wiki and deleting pages irrelevent to the subject.


 * Yes, of course it'd be better as a single wiki but it's too late for that - you've already made the wiki fork into two wikis.

- Our purpouse was not to fork the wikis. We thought wikia would care about the communinity and let us change this wiki into a modding one. We were wrong.


 * Users will now have to visit two sites or choose one wiki over the other. And over time, the latter is inevitable.

- The modding wiki eleminates this problem. One wiki can be visited for modding info, and the other can be visited for general info. It's that easy.


 * But that still doesn't mean you get to choose for us. We, as individual visitors, get to choose which wiki we go to.

- We're not stopping you. You have an entirerly identical wiki to go to. You still keep all of your contributions, edit count ect on the new wiki. So there are no problems!


 * And as much as I hate the new skin, the way you lot have been behaving, you've done Wikia a massive favour by making them look like the lesser evil.

- This is totally untrue. We've done all we can through nice talk. Now we have to get serious. It's not right to let wikia treat anyone this way. Especially dedicated admins.

Anyways, I am ashamed. Not with you, but with the direction you (as in wikia, not just you personally) are taking wikia and the way you are doing it. I have been editing here for almost two years. I have learnt so much and I thought that this great bunch of kind, helpful and friendly staff, that handeled even the most annoying and tedious jobs for me without complaint, would never change from the wonderful way they worked. I was wrong, you have shown me that even the best of people can be changed by money. Money is the root of all evil as they say. Anyways, I know you don't care about us little guys, so I doubt that I am going to bother anymore. Have fun sleeping on a bed paid for by the hours of tireless work of wikia contributors that you owe your liveleyhoods too and have ridiculed. We ask for one simple thing for all the money we've made you, and you ignore and ban us. You have just lost one of the most professional and least vandalised wikis on wikia. You have just lost dedicated admins, users and respect.

I do hope that you are happy.Chimpso (Talk) 06:26, October 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, the writing style is commonly known as 'literate'. To clarify, I have no love for Wikia nor any interest in contributing to Wikia. The best GTA wiki happens to be hosted here, so I read it here. The reason I favour their side now is because they are behaving exactly how you'd expect a for-profit business to behave, while you lot are behaving like children throwing tantrums because you don't like the terms which you agreed to when you started using Wikia. MediaWiki is open source and domain names and web hosting are dirt cheap so I never saw the logic in people using their platform, precisely because something like this was bound to happen. You gave up independence and rights to say what happens to this site by signing up to Wikia. All content is in the public domain and Wikia owns this (sub)domain name. You make it sound like Wikia are being unreasonable but nothing was taken from you guys - you never had it in the first place.
 * And are you really still trying to push the whole 'changing to a modding wiki is totally legit' thing? I mean, seriously? A modding wiki (see GTAModding.com) has a completely different focus and scope so it's really a case of apples and oranges.
 * If you want to know the turning point for me, it was when I came to this wiki a few days ago to find this very page because I couldn't remember the URL for your new site. But I couldn't do that and you know why? Someone had decided to delete/hide all the content on every single page on the whole wiki. How very mature, and yet you still question why you get banned?
 * I'll go back to lurking now. It's a damn shame what's happened but you guys don't have a leg to stand on, legally or morally. Oh, and by the way - you're not really speaking on behalf of the 'community' unless you exclude the majority of visitors: the unregistered. People like me just want to read the wiki, wherever it's hosted without random deletions and vandalism from some behind-the-scenes feud. Rodney88 12:39, October 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out that the terms that we agreed to when we moved to Wikia have changed substantially since that time. For example, we were promised that adverts would be kept away from the cotent space and yet subsequently they have moved into the content space making our efforts look less professional, as the adverts force infoboxoes further to the left, meaning that content becomes squashed into an decreasing space. We are not acting like children, merely acting like people who have contributed to and built up a website based on principles and promises that have been thrown back in our face. The community then decided to move and we announced this to make it clear that the community had moved on, and for doing this we were then demoted and some even had Wikia-wide blocks (despite being a staff member on other wikis that had no intention of leaving Wikia).
 * As for the idea of changing this site to a modding wiki, I think it made more sense and would make more money for Wikia, although I never thought for one second that it would actually be allowed or take place. I don't see it as apples and oranges, but more as a slim-lined information site dedicated to something more popular than general knowledge. An example being that more people would be interested in discovering downloads to enhance their gaming experience than about a minor character, such as Jayne Kwiatowski, who is mentioned once on a website. We were also planning on linking our site back to this one, so it wasn't as if we were attempting to shut down this wiki.
 * The deletion of content I also disagreed with and it came far to soon after we left for our own site. I completely agree that it looked like vandalism and can understand the Wikia point of view on this issue. The community should have been asked. Whilst the likelihood of this changing Wikia's mind is extremely small, it would have at least been an indication of the wishes of the community. The decision, from the point of view of changing the website, made sense but it should have been done further down the line, to avoid this situation.
 * I think that we have more than a leg to stand on, both morally and legally. We did all the work to make this wikia successful. I had been an administrator here from 2006 (before the Grand Theft Wiki joined Wikia) and know more than anyone on here the state that this was in when Grand Theft Wiki moved here. The site was more or less a dead zone and was hardly edited, and the content looked poor. Legally the content of the website is under various different copyrights and the name Grand Theft Wiki is owned by Gboyers. Wikia should change the name of this site back to the GTA Wikia and take down the references to Grand Theft Wiki.
 * I hope, whatever happens, that the community, both registered and unregistered, continues to discover the information that they desire and more to boot, which is the reason I started editing on both the GTA Wikia and Grand Theft Wiki in 2006. I have no problem with Wikia, other than the fact that they ignore the community (as evidenced by the number of wikis who have left or are thinking about leaving) and their lack of appreciation for our efforts. The least that Wikia could have done was allow us some time to advertise the fact that the community had moved. I tried to maintain this as, after four years and over twenty thousand edits here (and many others across Wikia), I believed it was deserved for not only mine but the communities efforts to improve the wiki, which has made Wikia money. Again, I hope that the community continues to discover the information they desire and hope that these issues can be resolved. I have no interest in getting involved and just want to continue to edit, but I will be sticking with Grand Theft Wiki. A-Dust 13:19, October 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * And are you really still trying to push the whole 'changing to a modding wiki is totally legit' thing? I mean, seriously? A modding wiki (see GTAModding.com) has a completely different focus and scope so it's really a case of apples and oranges.
 * Hey, as a prolific modder and the second most contributed editor on that site, I am very offended by you for thinking that changing this wiki into a modding wiki is not legit.--spaceeinstein 16:50, October 19, 2010 (UTC)

Rodney, since most of your points were accuratley rebbuted by A-Dust, there is no need for me to rebut them. But from your point of view and tone it is clear that you do not speak for the community, but more for wikia. This community is not wikia, wikia are just our hosts, it is a group of different people not owned or governed by a particular person or corperation. The GTW staff are here to keep peace and act as lead-bys for the rest of the community, as well as to handle the more technical issues on the wiki. In addition to this, I see you are arguing about the legitimacy of having a modding wiki. Although you may not believe this, not everything on a wiki has to be canon. Just look at the many Fan Fiction wikis out there. Modding is a completley legit subject that almost every GTA Fan takes part in. Whole websites, such as www.gtamodding.com are built around modding. It is a prime topic on huge GTA internet forums such as www.gtaforums.com and www.thegtaplace.com, both of which are officially recoginsed by Rockstar Games (the creators of GTA). The way you are acting is uncivil and you are starting to flame. Don't worry, we're not just going to ban you (like wikia) for having a different perspective. But continuing acting like this can constittute as real vandalism, not this site notice thing wikia is crying over. Anyways, the way I see it, there are three ways things can turn out:

1. This wiki turns into a modding wiki, which is a much more popular subject and would make wikia much more money. This wiki will link to GTW, and in return, we will link GTW to it so there are two great (well, this one would be semi-great, as the new skin will bring it down) sources for everyone to go to and everyone is happy.

2. You cease hosting this wiki. This would not be a good idea however as the coummunity who does not know of the move will not know where we went.

3. We are allowed to display a sitenotice for a few weeks explaining our move and where the community has gone.

The choice is yours and it's incredibly simple. Choice 1 would be the best for both of us. You get even more money from your ad riddled skin and a more popular subject, as well as us linking to you. All you have to do is let us convert this wiki and let you link to us. If you really care about the community, you would let us do this. What you are doing now is simply confusing and deliberatley confusing the community and making them think we are destroying them.

EDIT: Just thought I would add this, here is what mendel (a user on Wiki Simpsons) said: "Sannse has argued on her talkpage that keeping the wiki open is "for the benefit of any remaining community, and for any future community." All of the wikis who are moving are arguing that it is for the benefit of exactly these people to point them to where the experienced editors are who have built a successful wiki, and it's hard to argue against that. (And in fact, she doesn't.) Wikia refuses to redirect wikis, thus "splitting" the community, which leads to duplicated efforts. This is not beneficial to editors."

Can you rebut this? Chimpso (Talk) 07:46, October 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you actually read before commenting or are you just continuously rephrasing your nonsense in the hope of convincing people? I'll try to keep this simple so there's no misunderstanding. No one is questioning the legitimacy of a modding wiki. A modding wiki would be great. An example of a modding wiki can be seen at GTAModding.com. As you can see, content-wise, there is little to no overlap between this wiki and a modding wiki. Check for yourself but there's about 100 articles related to modding here, which accounts for less than 2% of articles. Therefore, there is absolutely no sense in refocusing this wiki into a modding wiki. If you want a modding wiki, start a new one.


 * Btw, you might want to stop begging Wikia with the promise of "much more money". You sound like a whiny little child. Although actually, judging from what you've been saying here, that's probably pretty accurate. In which case, you should probably go back to your homework and let the grown ups talk. Rodney88 10:35, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

For your information, I actually am only 14 years old. But this should not and does not effect the seriousness of my comments. Age is no mesure of maturity, sterotyping an age group is like sterotyping a race group; pointless and illogical. I always read comments. I try to accuratley rebut everything, but your abusive manner and utter disregard for our point of view is making things difficult. Either discuss this civily, like we are, or don't discuss it at all. GTAModding.com focuses only on the more technical aspects of modding and not on idvidual programs and people. The "hundred articles related to modding" on this wiki were never really given much attention or time to develop, we we're planning on expanding them. I am not begging wikia, as they don't really care, I am just stating the obvious. Wikia trys to focus on money, and I am trying to tell them that they can make more money by focusing on modding, which is a much more popular subject.

I am not offended by your comments ( I get it a lot), but I am asking you to please cease them, as It constitutes as flaming. Chimpso (Talk) 10:47, October 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Personal insults are a great way to solve problems and come to an agreement. Thanks for your useful contribution to this discussion, Rodney, but I'm here to discuss a solution. Gboyers talk 10:53, October 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * The solution is simple: go away and quit moaning. How can you claim ownership over the name Grand Theft Wiki? I mean, come on. It is undoubtedly the wittiest and most intelligent contraction of Grand Theft Auto and Wiki I have ever seen but still, not exactly original and you'd have a hard (read: impossible) time arguing trademark infringement. In a similar vein, I don't get to choose which people use the name Rodney.


 * As for a sitewide notice, well good luck with that. You chose to copy all the content to an external site, which is fair enough, but you knew all along that Wikia had no obligation to and was highly unlikely to let you advertise the new location. Sincerely, very best of luck with the new site and I hope it works out. But please, stop being so unreasonable about what happens to the remaining community which has decided to stay because of the way you behaved. Rodney88 12:44, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Rodney, you are not contributing to this debate in any positive or civil way. Please do not comment again. Chimpso (Talk) 02:45, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

Solution
Since it is clear that Wikia are going to run this copy as a competitor to the legitimate Grand Theft Wiki, I have two requests. Firstly, change the site name and logo to something of Wikia's own, such as 'GTA Wikia'. That includes the pagetitle, project namespace etc. Secondly, permit a sitenotice that links to this page or similar, to allow users to know what's going on with their wiki and make their own decision about what to do. With those two reasonable requests fulfilled, my staff will leave this site alone and allow it to forge its own path as Wikia desire. Gboyers talk 10:52, October 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, a sitenotice that links to a page explaining the situation, this or another, is OK. I'd ask that it don't link directly to your new wiki, although I'm fine with the link to your wiki being on the explanation page. I also ask that the notice doesn't exclude the option of people staying. One used elsewhere, for example, was "An alternative version of this wiki is being set up, Please see the forum page for details ." I will change the logo as soon as I can come up with something suitable. I'm not happy with changing the pagetitle, because that would have significant impact on this site's SEO and so the chances of it recovering over time. However, I would be prepared to make the logo show something other than "Grand Theft Wiki" (although I have a big aversion to anything like Grand Theftapedia... soooooo over-done ;)


 * Does that work? -- Sannse 21:20, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. A sitenotice that links to Grand Theft Wiki:Community Portal/Oasis explaining the 'split' and offering users their own choice as to where they edit. As for the pagetitle, I just meant to reflect the logo and site name not being the words "Grand Theft Wiki" in that order (to avoid confusion and SEO penalties). What about the project namespace? I agree with avoiding Grand Theftapedia - unfortunately there are too many in the new generation who think "a wiki" means Wikipedia only and haven't heard of an encyclopaedia! I'm still disappointed Wikia is choosing to compete rather than work in partnership with the departed community, but I'm glad we can work this out civilly. Gboyers talk 22:16, October 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that's the rub, neither of us want to lose the SEO from the existing title. Perhaps your community can come up with something innovative for the new location? -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 23:34, October 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Our site still wishes to keep the Grand Theft Wiki name, no argument there. We will not give up a name we've used for years. In addition to this, we are not going to purchase another domain. If the domain name is www.grandtheftwiki.com, you can't expect us to call the wiki something else. That would make no sense. The domain name of this wiki; gta, can have many names. Chimpso (Talk) 04:17, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

It's not for reasons of SEO that we want the name, it's our identity - the name I was using for the wiki long before Wikia. If you wanted good SEO, go for "GTA Wiki" which is what more people search for. I'm afraid I can't just give up the identity of our site to this copy, just because Wikia wants to make more money from it. Gboyers talk 08:48, October 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's about recovery and rebuilding the community rather than eyes on ads... but either way, I think your solution of GTA Wiki will work :)


 * So I should be able to re-do the logo over the weekend, and will also make any adjustments needed to the sitename and so on. Feel free to make on-wiki changes needed to reflect the change, but if you don't,  I'll do them as soon as I can.  -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 05:54, October 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've done the logo, and changed the setting for sitename (which also changes the project namespace. Please let me know if I missed anything -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 04:37, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

A header

 * change happens accept it
 * yes
 * I started editing memory alpha in march 2006 so I am staying with wikia

Absolutely awesome decision, you guys
When I read this, I was just nodding my head the entire time.

A-fucking-men.

Let's all get off shitty wikipeda and leave a bogus copy for them while we edit the good ones. I'll see you there.Tommy-Vercetti 23:11, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

Why are you leaving this message, firstly they moved a while ago and secondly none of the people who wanted to move are active here anymore. Tom ( Talk ) 17:10, November 8, 2010 (UTC)

I don't disagree with him, i just thought that you'd all left wikia altogether, i heard that all the former staff of this wiki got blocked from wikia anyway. Tom ( Talk ) 17:26, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually we still read this, and answer questions for users who have them. If someone wants to leave a legitimate comment, don't shoot them down just because you don't agree with it. Let them. Gboyers talk 17:20, November 8, 2010 (UTC)

Comment

 * Copied from Grand Theft Wiki talk:Community Portal/Oasis

1. I think the new skin has an awful layout. The bright red edit buttons do not work for me at all. I might as well buy a 3 wheeled car if I wanted that kind of service. The point is to edit, and yet it makes it incredibly difficult, so what's the point? I thoroughly despise its layout, it doesn't work, and everything is crammed together. I hate how it was thrust upon us, even though majority was against it.

2. Leave it. I think more should, and I hope they eventually do.

3. I'm already moved. Not only would I move with, I'd convince others to do the same. --Tommy-Vercetti 18:01, November 8, 2010 (UTC)

IF Wikia doesn't want to to change the skin just move
I had just recently seen what happened at this wiki. I have not opened this wiki until today,and what I see is way different that what I see 4 months ago. I mean, I want to see the content of one thing (I am not going to say the page), and these annoying ads disturbs me and as stated, the content page is also shrinked. I have also seen this kind of skin on Ace Combat Wiki. So here's what I think:

1) The new skin sucks. I like the old skin better than this and Wikia should allow the use of the old skin.

2)As I said, if Wikia doen't want to change just move away. And after seeing this talk page, I agreed 100% that GTW should move from Wikia.

3)IF you moved, and in this case you have, I will definitely move with the admin users rather than staying in gta.wikia.com, This place can rot without new edits or pages. --User:Black Falcon